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  • jonesyd UE Diary

    Have been slowly progressing down the CCA/SAR route with a variety of lenders since last June. Initially this was just in response to their complete unwillingness to give me some flexibility during a difficult 6 months - for many years I had been a high-earning, regular bill-paying customer, then I started my own business and had a bit of a cashflow nightmare in 2010. Now all is (fairly) well - and I am reasonably solvent again - I'm continuing more in protest at their appalling behaviour (to me and to others) than out of necessity. I was formerly a barrister (though not in any field related to finance) and I am simply staggered by how lenders and DCAs routinely ignore or misrepresent legislation and regulation in order to terrify normal working people (and those unable to work through no fault of their own) into giving what they cannot give. it is no better than sharking and - as so many people have said on this site and others - the moral argument is lost.

    I am at the point now of having received CCA data and or SAR data from most lenders. As I progress to the next step with each, I will post a potted history here. First up will be those charming people at MBNA.

    Added on 01.02.2011
    Perhaps I should be clearer: the only debts I have are unsecured CC debts. And I don't have a mortgage or a property to charge against - everything I own is tied up in my business. My initial goal with this was 6 months of breathing space. When that became impossible, I fell upon UE as a viable alternative. Now that I am knee-deep, though, my ideal scenario now is to reach a point on the UE debts where the OC will accept an F&FS in exchange (if possible) for cleaning my down my defaults, etc.

    There is also a pretty high chance I will be leaving the UK permanently (new work) in May/June, so ideally I'd like to have things in order by then - either F&FSs all round or else back to plan A.

    Added on 02.02.2011
    Maybe it is worth adding more about me. Like everybody here, I've had my ups and downs, good fortune and bad. I grew up in a very average council house in a large family with a single Mum doing lots of menial jobs to make ends meet: free school dinners, TV meters, locks on the phone - you get the picture. I went to a bog standard comp and was fortunate enough to do well and proceed to a good university and then become a lawyer. But I've had my bumps, too: I've almost bankrupted twice - firstly, at 25, due to a ridiculous family feud and then, secondly, a few years ago as the result of a failed business project. So I'm fairly sanguine, but not smug in any way, about my cashflow crisis of last year and dealing with the UE panto.

    All this is to go some way to explain that I'm not some toff fallen on had times or else the cliche of the "virtuous" insolvent. I don't judge anyone on the circumstances that led them here or why they are going down this route. As far as I am concerned, all moral and ethical arguments over a debtor's obligation to his debt, even if they are valid, come a very, very long way behind the current debate on licensed lenders' obligations to society and to the individuals they purport to serve. So if I can in some small way remind them of their obligations by attempting to resolve my own financial difficulties, then so much the better.
    Last edited by jonesyd; 2 February 2011, 12:47.

  • #2
    Re: Virgin/MBNA

    Virgin/MBNA

    Agreement from Aug 2004, 18K balance on a 21K limit.
    Type of account (credit card)
    Date commenced (Aug 2004)
    Approx balance (18K)
    Date last paid (Jun 2010)
    Are you on arrangement or not paying (not paying)
    Status (in arrears)
    Account owner (the lender)
    2010:
    June: approach MBNA about 6 months of token payments whilst I resolve a temporary cashflow difficulty
    June: send CCA request
    June: receive request for detailed income and expenditure statement
    June: send general outline of the cashflow difficulty
    July: receive request for more details of income and expenditure
    July: receive arrears letter from Aegis
    July: receive CCA reply - illegible and incomplete, virtually nonsense
    July: send notification that the CCA reply was not compliant and we are now in dispute until they do comply
    July: receive letter of apology for delay in replying to CCA request
    July: receive account in arrears letter
    August: receive account in arrears letter
    September: receive Notice of Arrears
    September: receive Notice of Arrears
    September: receive request for detailed income and expenditure detail
    September: receive incorrect Default Notice
    September: send letter pointing out Default Notice problem and reminding of outstanding CCA request
    September: receive letter saying "Please phone us"
    October: send general complaint letter
    October: receive pretend legal letter from Optima
    October: lose patience waiting for CCA data, send SAR request
    November: receive letter apologising for delay in SAR reply
    November: receive Notice of Arrears
    November: SAR period expires
    December: receive letter apologising for delay in SAR reply

    2011:
    January: receive SAR data (part 1)
    January: receive SAR data (part 2) - in here is my "CCA" - sent to NID for his advice
    Last edited by Never-In-Doubt; 4 February 2011, 03:53.

    Comment


    • #3
      Egg

      Egg

      Agreement from June 02, 13K balance on a 15K limit.
      Type of account (credit card)
      Date commenced (June 2002)
      Approx balance (13K)
      Date last paid (Jun 2010)
      Are you on arrangement or not paying (not paying)
      Status (card withdrawn, account closed!)
      Account owner (the lender)
      2010:
      June: approach Egg about 6 months of token payments whilst I resolve a temporary cashflow difficulty
      June: send CCA request
      June: receive request for detailed income and expenditure statement
      June: send general outline of the cashflow difficulty
      July: receive account in arrears letter
      July: end of CCA period, send notice of account now in dispute
      August: receive account in arrears letter
      September: receive Notice of Arrears
      September: receive letter saying "Please phone us"
      October: receive pretend legal letter from Capital Credit Agencies
      October: receive CCA responses: identikit Ts&Cs, nothing else
      October: send letter saying CCA response is not compliant
      October: receive letter: "oh yes it is"
      October: receive pretend legal letter from Capital Credit Agencies
      October: lose patience waiting for CCA data, send SAR request
      November: receive letter "we have received your complaint, etc"
      November: receive letter apologising for delay in SAR reply
      November: receive letter saying card withdrawn, account closed
      November: SAR period expires
      December: receive letter apologising for delay in SAR reply
      December: a very apologetic guy from "ResolveCall" came by, I told him I would only receive any contact by letter, he went away

      2011:
      January: receive lovely big box of SAR data. The "CCA" is two sides of photocopied A4, no Ts&Cs. Sent to NID for advice.
      Last edited by Never-In-Doubt; 4 February 2011, 03:54.

      Comment


      • #4
        Cahoot

        Cahoot

        Agreement from April 04, 4K balance on a 6K limit.
        Type of account (credit card)
        Date commenced (April 2004)
        Approx balance (4K)
        Date last paid (Jun 2010)
        Are you on arrangement or not paying (not paying)
        Status (in arrears)
        Account owner (the lender)
        2010:
        June: approach Cahoot about 6 months of token payments whilst I resolve a temporary cashflow difficulty
        June: send CCA request
        June: notice of late fees
        June: receive Notice of Arrears
        July: receive Notice of Arrears
        July: end of CCA period, send notice of account now in dispute
        August: receive Notice of Arrears
        September: receive Pay in Full request
        September: receive letter saying "Please phone us"
        October: still no CCA, remind them account is in dispute
        October: receive CCA response: no Ts&Cs, missing signature
        October: send letter saying CCA response is not compliant
        October: please phone us
        October: please phone us
        November: please phone us
        November: please phone us
        December: please phone us

        2011:
        January: new CCA response: no Ts&Cs, missing signature
        January: please phone us
        January: lose patience, send SAR - ask NID for advice on the CCA received
        Last edited by Never-In-Doubt; 4 February 2011, 03:55.

        Comment


        • #5
          Capital One

          Capital One

          Agreement from Jul 05, 1.8K balance on a 2.5K limit.
          Type of account (credit card)
          Date commenced (July 2005)
          Approx balance (1.8K)
          Date last paid (Jun 2010)
          Are you on arrangement or not paying (not paying)
          Status (in arrears)
          Account owner (the lender/captive DCA)
          (This one has been epic. Bizarre - the lowest balance of all. Now I'm solvent(ish), I'm tempted to pay it just to avoid the hassle, but I'm also intrigued to know how far they will go with this. FTC - must be an acronym for "random letter generator" in Hampshirese)

          2010:
          June: approach Capital One about 6 months of token payments whilst I resolve a temporary cashflow difficulty
          June: send CCA request
          June: notice of late fees
          June: receive Notice of Arrears
          June: CCA data arrives: only idenitikit Ts&Cs
          June: send them notice that the CCA is not compliant and that the account is in dispute
          July: receive Need More Time to satisfy CCA letter
          July: please phone us
          July: please phone us
          July: please phone us
          July: receive Notice of Arrears
          August: receive Notice of Arrears
          August: please phone us
          August: please phone us
          August: please phone us
          August: please phone us
          August: please phone us
          September: receive Notice of Arrears
          September: please phone us
          September: receive a letter asking "are you requesting a short-term payment plan or a long-term payment plan?"
          September: please phone us
          October: still no new CCA data, remind them account is in dispute
          October: FTC (CapQuest - in house DCA) letter
          October: FTC threat
          October: FTC letter
          October: FTC threat
          October: FTC letter
          October: FTC letter - send I&E data
          November: FTC threat
          November: FTC letter
          November: FTC threat
          November: FTC letter
          November: FTC threat
          November: FTC letter
          November: please phone us
          December: FTC threat
          December: FTC letter
          December: new CCA data, no Ts&Cs
          December: FTC threat
          December: FTC letter
          December: FTC threat
          December: FTC letter
          December: FTC threat (Xmas Eve - the charmers!)


          2011:
          January: SAR
          January: receive letter: need a signature for a SAR
          January: send letter: "oh no you don't"
          January: FTC threat
          January: FTC letter
          January: FTC threat
          January: FTC letter
          January: receive letter: there will be no further correspondence(!)
          January: receive letter: need a signature for a SAR
          January: send letter: "oh no you don't"
          January: FTC threat
          January: FTC letter
          January: FTC threat
          January: FTC letter
          January: ask NID for advice on the CCA data received thus far
          Last edited by Never-In-Doubt; 4 February 2011, 03:56.

          Comment


          • #6
            M&S Money

            M&S Money

            Agreement from June 05, 5K balance on an 8K limit.

            2010:
            June: approach Egg about 6 months of token payments whilst I resolve a temporary cashflow difficulty
            June: send CCA request
            June: receive request for detailed income and expenditure statement
            June: send general outline of the cashflow difficulty
            July: receive CCA response, seems OK but is perhaps questionable
            August: agree to token payments until December, but refuse request to freeze interest
            September: receive Notice of Arrears
            October: receive Notice of Arrears
            November: receive Notice of Arrears
            November: receive Default Notice
            December: receive letter from Pre Legal Recoveries (in house DCA) threatening action
            December: receive Notice of Arrears

            2011:
            January: send letter asking for removal of interest since June pending return to normal service
            January: receive letter refusing request to remove interest - send questionable CCA to NID for advice

            Comment


            • #7
              NatWest

              NatWest
              Type of account (credit card)
              Date commenced (2001)
              Approx balance (4K)
              Date last paid (Jun 2010)
              Are you on arrangement or not paying (not paying)
              Status (in arrears)
              Account owner (the lender/captive DCA)
              2010:
              Jun approach NatWest about 6 months of token payments whilst I resolve a temporary cashflow difficulty
              Jun send CCA request
              Jul receive CCA reply, seems dodgy
              Jul receive Default Notice
              Jul send notice that the CCA is not compliant and that the account is in dispute
              Jul Account terminated
              Aug receive Std arrears letter
              Sep Triton (NatWest/RBS in house DCA) letter
              Oct send reminder that the CCA is not compliant and that the account is in dispute
              Nov receive Notice of Arrears
              Nov receive letter saying the CCA was fine
              Dec Triton letter
              Dec Triton letter


              2011:

              Jan Triton letter
              Jan Triton letter
              Jan Green & Co Solicitors (NatWest/RBS pretend law firm): letter saying the CCA was fine
              Jan sent Green & Co a polite sod off letter
              Jan ask NID for advice on the CCA data received thus far
              Last edited by Never-In-Doubt; 4 February 2011, 03:57.

              Comment


              • #8
                the remainder

                I have 4 others. The first 3 are comedy:


                Barclaycard:
                Commenced in 1998 (guess), Balance of 3K on a 5k limit. Went through much the same routine as the above, but for:
                - continually decline to supply any kind of true copy
                - a flurry of Mercers (in house DCA) letters
                - no Default Notices
                - in December, they eventually concede they do not currently have access to the original agreement and are thus prevented from enforcing
                - the next day Calders (other in house DCA) send a letter offering to settle for 40% of the outstanding amount
                - am waiting for the next offer.

                Lloyds Mastercard
                Commenced in 1991 (guess), Balance of 4K on a 7k limit. Went through much the same routine as the above, but for:
                - sent (separately) 2 pretend true copies, but they were both for other (different!) people, the clots!
                - flurry of Arrears Notices
                - no Default Notices
                - a few SCM (in house law firm) letters
                - lose patience and SAR in Jan 11.

                Citi/Opus
                Commenced in 2003 (guess), Balance of 2K on a 4k limit. Went through much the same routine as the above, but for:
                - Citi were hopeless, did not respond until Sep, and only then to say they'd been sold to Opus - cheers!
                - in Dec, Opus respond the original CCA with 10 pages of current Ts&Cs, no signatures, no dates, nothing
                - am waiting for a "proper" CCA - could be a long one, I know.


                The 4th I have an irrational affection for:

                Partnership Card:
                Commenced in 1999 (guess), Balance of 7K on a 8k limit.
                I'm a bit reluctant to do anything with them - provided what looks like a decent CCA and they agreed to open-ended token payments and froze interest as soon as I asked, with no I&E request. Still going.
                Last edited by jonesyd; 1 February 2011, 23:29.

                Comment


                • #9
                  bltn

                  Never been especially pro or anti credit cards - I've used them since I was in college, and have always seem to have had them. But now I post all this, I realise I haven't actually used one since June 2010 and it has not had the slightest effect whatsoever. Ah well, better late than never.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: bltn

                    Originally posted by jonesyd View Post
                    Never been especially pro or anti credit cards - I've used them since I was in college, and have always seem to have had them. But now I post all this, I realise I haven't actually used one since June 2010 and it has not had the slightest effect whatsoever. Ah well, better late than never.
                    Welcome aboard - you will find much support on here.
                    My position / tack is similar to yours...Im just a bit further down the line,but you have the added advantage of legal expertise.
                    Good luck to you & I hope you dont mind me following your progress and subbing where appropriate.
                    Matty

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      abuses

                      Originally posted by MustGetStraight
                      Hello
                      Well, they would say that wouldn't they
                      The best bit with Green&Co (love the "pretend law firm" description) is that they send the first letter out on nice laid paper and then anything subsequent comes on cheap Lidl photocopy paper. But the nice thing is that as soon as you send a Niddy letter they just close their file and send it back to Try-it-on.
                      Have fun
                      I have to say I was really alarmed, disgusted and shocked by some of the methods I've seen since I began this journey. The in-house DCAs and the pretend law firms are symptomatic of a broken system; the lenders do these things because they are not punished for it and because it allows them to sneak around (the fairly minimal) obligations that they have to be, and be seen to be, transparent. But to the layman, the distinction between real and pretend is of course completely lost, so Jo Shmo receiving a letter from SCM or Pre Legal Recoveries or Green & Co will just think they're going to end up getting battered in court next week. I mean, FFS, the whole idea here is that lenders receive licences because of their credentials and for their ability to resist abusing the rules and regs that affect regular retail banking customers. If they're routinely using sham DCAs and sham law firms to avoid the rules and regs, and the FSA know and do nothing, then the system is broken.
                      Last edited by jonesyd; 1 February 2011, 23:56.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: abuses

                        Originally posted by jonesyd View Post
                        I have to say I was really alarmed, disgusted and shocked by some of the methods I've seen since I began this journey. The in-house DCAs and the pretend law firms are symptomatic of a broken system; the lenders do these things because they are not punished for it and because it allows them to sneak around (the fairly minimal) obligations that they have to be, and be seen to be, transparent. But to the layman, the distinction between real and pretend is of course completely lost, so Jo Shmo receiving a letter from SCM or Pre Legal Recoveries or Green & Co will just think they're going to end up getting battered in court next week. I mean, FFS, the whole idea here is that lenders receive licences because of their credentials and for their ability to resist abusing the rules and regs that affect regular retail banking customers. If they're routinely using sham DCAs and sham law firms to avoid the rules and regs, and the FSA know and do nothing, then the system is broken.
                        Couldn't agree more. Well said.
                        Niddified and proud!

                        Fought and won the UE battle, thanks to Niddy and this forum...
                        SB since 2016. Now have my life back!

                        (I used to be MustGetStraight but I've lost a "t")

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: abuses

                          Originally posted by jonesyd View Post
                          I have to say I was really alarmed, disgusted and shocked by some of the methods I've seen since I began this journey. The in-house DCAs and the pretend law firms are symptomatic of a broken system; the lenders do these things because they are not punished for it and because it allows them to sneak around (the fairly minimal) obligations that they have to be, and be seen to be, transparent. But to the layman, the distinction between real and pretend is of course completely lost, so Jo Shmo receiving a letter from SCM or Pre Legal Recoveries or Green & Co will just think they're going to end up getting battered in court next week. I mean, FFS, the whole idea here is that lenders receive licences because of their credentials and for their ability to resist abusing the rules and regs that affect regular retail banking customers. If they're routinely using sham DCAs and sham law firms to avoid the rules and regs, and the FSA know and do nothing, then the system is broken.
                          welcome to the real world of debt, its a bit like the Matrix, all this shyte is going on around you and you don't actually know until something drags you in. At least now, your eyes are open and you have a huge advantage of legal experience. I'm on the same road but a bit further down, a year in, and I am still amazed by the shyte some of these people produce, I am fairly certain a lot of their "standard" letters are illegal cos they don't actually tell the truth ie "we have completed out obligation to you" eehhh no!!!.
                          good luck and understand that you are one of the lucky ones that have found this site and Niddy, lots of poor buggers just get crunched.

                          Feel free to ask if I can be of any help.
                          Last edited by MrsD; 2 February 2011, 08:32. Reason: wrong fingers on hands

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Virgin/MBNA

                            Originally posted by jonesyd View Post
                            Virgin/MBNA

                            Agreement from Aug 2004, 18K balance on a 21K limit.

                            2010:
                            September: receive incorrect Default Notice
                            September: send letter pointing out Default Notice problem and reminding of outstanding CCA request.

                            2011:
                            January: receive SAR data (part 2) - in here is my "CCA" - sent to NID for his advice
                            This is unenforceable as it is simply a short application with restricted terms and most importantly it is illegible. You should respond with this: ---> CCA Query - Application Form Received

                            However, that said I am more interested right now in the highlighted line above - what was wrong with the DN and what happened there? I'd like to see the DN if poss - we can use that as additional fight if they try court!

                            Last edited by Never-In-Doubt; 4 February 2011, 03:52.
                            I'm the forum administrator and I look after the theme & features, our volunteers & users and also look after any complaints or Data Protection queries that pass through the forum or main website. I am extremely busy so if you do contact me or need a reply to a forum post then use the email or PM features offered because I do miss things and get tied up for days at a time!

                            If you spot any spammers, AE's, abusive or libellous posts or anything else that just doesn't feel right then please report them to me as soon as you spot them at: webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Egg

                              Originally posted by jonesyd View Post
                              Egg

                              Agreement from June 02, 13K balance on a 15K limit.

                              2011:
                              January: receive lovely big box of SAR data. The "CCA" is two sides of photocopied A4, no Ts&Cs. Sent to NID for advice.
                              This is unenforceable as there are no accompanying Prescribed terms - also, point to note they use the term approved limit, yes it did lose in court, but that was flawed also (IMO)!! In any case, this is UE and you should be sending this back to Egg: ---> CCA Query - Missing Prescribed Terms

                              I'm the forum administrator and I look after the theme & features, our volunteers & users and also look after any complaints or Data Protection queries that pass through the forum or main website. I am extremely busy so if you do contact me or need a reply to a forum post then use the email or PM features offered because I do miss things and get tied up for days at a time!

                              If you spot any spammers, AE's, abusive or libellous posts or anything else that just doesn't feel right then please report them to me as soon as you spot them at: webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk

                              Comment

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