Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

[evilcartman]

I bought a house a few months ago and unfortunately British Gas was the incumbent energy supplier. I went through uSwitch to change provider as soon as I could but I was stuck with BG in the meantime.

These clowns subsequently sent me a final bill based on what they claimed were "actual meter readings", when in fact this was impossible as my gas and electric meters are in an internal cupboard in a locked house to which only I have the keys (I changed locks when I moved in). I made a complaint at the time as the gas bill was miles out. I got my new energy supplier to agree a new reading.

I don't recall ever actually receiving the revised bill from British Gas. However, I have recently received a letter from a DCA called Improved Financial Solutions Ltd. They say "a late payment fee of £5 has now been included".

I have already emailed this DCA back to point out that the account is in dispute, that they have no authority to impose a penalty charge beyond actual costs incurred and that neither British Gas nor the DCA have had my consent under the Data Protection Act to pass my personal details to each other or other parties.

I then decided to call up British Gas themselves, as I presumed that this "late payment fee" was just the DCA trying it on. Unfortunately I got connected to an Indian call centre and the gentleman on the other end of the line told me that the £5 fee was British Gas policy and I "have to pay it". Yeah, they can dream on.

I tried to argue with this guy that such charges are unenforceable in English law. He tried to claim that I had agreed to the charges when I took up service with BG, so I challenged him to show where I had signed any document agreeing to such charges. He then tried to claim that I had agreed to them verbally over the telephone when I took over the gas and electricity accounts. I asked him if there were any recordings of me making this verbal agreement, by which time he was starting to get flustered. He then told me that he wasn't interested in the law, "the company policy" was that I had to pay the £5.

I then told him that he didn't have a clue what he was talking about and I wanted to speak to a supervisor. I was then put on hold and I hung up because I couldn't be arsed to wait.

So can people advise me on how best to proceed from here? I don't object to paying the actual bill, but I do object on principle to paying a penalty fee even if it's only a fiver.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

Lodge a complaint with the CEO of British Gas here:

http://www.ceoemail.com/se.php?id=75315

This will then get passed to the top tier of complaints dept which is british and not an indian call centre

[SXGuy]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

under late payment legislation you can charge for a late payment, but if the payment which is late is in dispute, i think its unlikely they should be able to charge a late fee.

[SA Gold]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

http://www.ceoemail.com

That's a handy site, cheers!

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

That's a handy site, cheers!

Yup I use it quiet a lot as I have done here:

An old sorted issue has raised it's ugly head - allaboutFORUMS

[evilcartman]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

Yup I use it quiet a lot as I have done here:

An old sorted issue has raised it's ugly head - allaboutFORUMS

Yes, I've used the CEO emails website quite a few times myself, including to the current British Gas CEO's predecessor.

Very useful site indeed. It's amazing how much better results you get when you go straight to the top instead of the fob-off merchants.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

Yes it is because they have the reputation and professionalism of the company to think about.

[evilcartman]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

I had a bit of fun with British Gas yesterday on this issue. I had sent the DCA a standard letter pointing out that I had not consented to British Gas passing my details on to third parties and demanding that they remove my details and not process them in any way. The DCA wrote back saying they wouldn't remove the details "as we have been instructed by our client to recover the monies owed to them".

So I wrote back to British Gas about the penalty charges and the data protection issues, saying:

Penalty charges are not legally enforceable in English common law and any fees charged MUST be a true reflection of the costs incurred. I am quite willing to pay direct to British Gas the outstanding balance of £xxxxx upon receipt of a correctly drawn up bill which shows how this figure has been arrived at. I am, however, unwilling to pay a £5 additional fee, just a matter of weeks after a final bill that I never received was drawn up, without a transparent itemisation of how exactly this £5 has been incurred in this case. Until I receive this bill and the itemisation, this account remains formally IN DISPUTE.

Returning to the topic of Data Protection, I did not at any time consent to my personal details being passed to a third party for any purpose. If you believe otherwise, kindly produce a contract signed by me in which I gave such consent or a recording of me giving such consent verbally. I never approached British Gas to be the energy provider for this property, it was simply the incumbent supplier when I purchased the house and I made arrangements to switch suppliers to EDF as soon as I could.

I will be referring both British Gas and IMFS to the Information Commissioner for breaches of the Data Protection Act 1998 unless this matter is rectified with immediate effect. In particular, I require that British Gas undertakes not to make any further data protection breaches with my personal details and that IMFS remove any reference to this alleged debt from their files along with all references to my name, address and all and any other data your company holds on me and furthermore, I demand an immediate cessation of any processing of unsubstantiated data under provision of the Data Protection Act 1998.

Now I've had an email response from a British Gas customer relations bod, although at least she has offered to waive the "late payment fee" if I pay within seven days:

Thank you for your email. I am sending you a copy of the bill and the reminder notice which details the consequence of non payment. We can use debt agencies who arrange payment collection for final outstanding bills on our behalf.

I am sorry to learn that this matter is continuing to cause you so much trouble [ooh! sarky! ] and I hope these copies are helpful. You can pay over the phone on 0800 048 0404. If you’d like to arrange payment within the next 7 days I’ll cancel the £5 charge.

With regard to the contract itself, a contract exists between us, British Gas and you as our customer under the following conditions:

·When you and we agree that we will supply you with energy, either over the phone or in person
·When you register on our website and ‘click’ to confirm that you accept our terms and conditions.
·When you move into or take responsibility for a property that we already supply energy to.

From that date onwards, you are bound by our Terms and Conditions of supply and these are available to view online at Cheap Gas & Electricity, Boilers and Energy Efficiency - British Gas or we can send you a paper copy through the post if you prefer.

Please let me know if I can help you further.

How can the mere act of moving into a house where they are the incumbent energy supplier mean that I have consented to them passing my personal details to third parties? I think I'll just pay the bill within the seven day deadline to avoid the fee, as the amounts involved are far too small to get courts involved. But I really do object to the arrogant manner with which they flout the Data Protection Act. I have had dealings with the ICO before, so I know that they are very slow in dealing with things, but most of my complaints have been successful, so I do feel like adding this one to my collection.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

How can the mere act of moving into a house where they are the incumbent energy supplier mean that I have consented to them passing my personal details to third parties? I think I'll just pay the bill within the seven day deadline to avoid the fee, as the amounts involved are far too small to get courts involved. But I really do object to the arrogant manner with which they flout the Data Protection Act. I have had dealings with the ICO before, so I know that they are very slow in dealing with things, but most of my complaints have been successful, so I do feel like adding this one to my collection.

I am also on a warpath with E-On mate and also Yorkshire water.

I never agreed to anything being shared yet e-On seem to think they can add data cos they told the ICO they were adding it. Fine, but like a credit card you should allow us time to settle any bills then cancel with you - no processing to be done in this transition period.

Likewise, with the water board I am kicking off big time cos my logic there is they monoplise the industry so the fact we cannot choose another supplier means their terms are immediately unfair and a breach of UTTCR 1999 (linky) as they can do what they want, and we have no authority or power to stop it.

I think maybe time to lobby the ICO and government bodies.... are you game?

[evilcartman]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

Ha, always up for a fight against corporate bullies. Just tell me what I need to do.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

My email to e-On CEO

Thanks for your letter and response. I do understand exactly what you're saying but there is one little (or rather, one big) fundamental error here - I never actually signed up to go with you. We bought a new build from Barratt Homes in 2007 and guess who the supplier was when we moved in? You. I never received terms from you, hence I never ever agreed to you using or sharing my data.

Maybe Barratt Homes signed and agreed something with you, as a builder, but I most certainly never.

Can you now see where the problem lies, insofar as you actually have no legal right to use my personal data, none?

Their response!

Thanks for your latest email. I’ll answer each point that you’ve raised.

Not signing a contract in 2007

When any customer moves into a new home, they are automatically supplied by the existing energy supplier. This is known as a ‘deemed contract’

The occupier who is responsible for payment of energy doesn’t need to sign anything. When you moved into your new home in July 2007, we sent you a Welcome to your new home letter, along with your Terms and Conditions. Each time your prices change we send a copy of our Terms and Conditions.

Deemed contracts protect customers who move and ensure they have continuity of supply. If you visit consumerfocus.org.uk and under the energy section type in the question “Billing when no contract has been agreed” you’ll see the passage:

'You do not need to have signed anything for a legal contract to be in place'

Utilities Act 2000- definition of a deemed contract

‘Pursuant to schedule 4 of the Utilities Act 2000; Where an electricity supplier supplies electricity otherwise than in pursuance of a contract, the supplier shall be deemed to have contracted with the occupier (or the owner if the premises are unoccupied) for the supply of electricity as for the time when he began so to supply electricity’.

‘Furthermore, as per paragraph 3. – (2)a; where a supply of electricity so conveyed has been previously supplied by an electricity supplier, the owner or occupier shall be deemed to have contracted with the appropriate supplier for electricity as from the when he began to take such a supply’.

Credit Score

To avoid any further negative impact upon your credit score you’ll need to agree a new payment plan or pay the monies due in full. Setting up a new Direct Debit will mean that your credit score will be ‘0’.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

The above shows just what a pile of shit they actually are. Unreal. They think they have rights no other firm worldwide has!

I think it's time they were brought to task....

This is the best statement ever

'You do not need to have signed anything for a legal contract to be in place'

Really...? So I can just say now, all of you owe me £5 per month for posting here, it's in the terms but you never had to agree to them so pay up or I'll default you.

Ermmm, yea - really?

[SA Gold]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

Unbelievable. I think its about time they were Niddy'd. :niddy

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Enforceability of British Gas "late payment fee"?

Well it gets fookin worse

--> http://www.consumerfocus.org.uk/file...the-record.pdf

Go to page 6 - Credit Reference Agencies....

As every household in Great Britain is an energy
customer, the information held by energy
companies is viewed as a valuable addition to
the CRA’s databases. Some consumers may
fail to keep in touch with lenders, or respond
to contact from financial services companies
with whom they had a previous relationship.
However, in order to maintain an energy supply,
consumers will need to have some form of
contact with their energy supplier(s). Therefore
the basic customer information held by energy
companies, including the name, address and
other contact details is arguably the most up to
date information available. This data is likely to
be of particular interest to the collections and
recovery departments of banks and other lenders
as well as debt collection companies.

Prior to sharing data with other credit providers,
energy companies had to rely on their own
knowledge of their customers to decide whether
there was a likelihood of non payment eg if there
had been previous payment arrears. Indeed, those
energy companies which do not yet share data
continue to rely on their own customer records to
make credit and other financial decisions.

Energy companies that are currently sharing data
with CRAs have access to information about their
customers’ financial behaviour with other credit
granting companies. This includes how and when
they pay for spending on their credit, store and
charge cards and how they manage home credit
accounts, personal loans and mobile phone and
mail order accounts. Using this data can give
energy companies a much wider picture of the
customer’s finances, which in theory could be
used to make better, more informed decisions
about the right payment method, affordable debt
repayment options etc