HELP

[paris]

Hi Niddy

I have used your letters before to fight a unenforcable debt for the past few years and I wonder if you have a new letter that I can use because the DCA has said that are going to try and take out a CCJ.


Abit of background information I have been sent two credit agreements with one with alleged signature on and one without. The credit agreements do not contain all of the prescribed terms and have different dates on them

I compain to the FOS ( big mistake I Know) and lost because I made token payments and offered full and final.However the good thing is that the FOS have admit that the credit agreements contain discrepancies and that only a court can decide if it is unenforceable. The FOS also said that their decison is not binding on me if I reject it and that I am free to raise my arguements in any subsequent court action.

I could not go into too much detail for obvious reasons.

[Riz]

Re: HELP

Reading between the lines from what has been posted elsewhere (or not posted now), I take it that you never owed this debt or took out the agreement claimed?

And that you only began paying this due to pressure from the debt collectors when you were unsure whether this was one of your previous genuine debts?

[paris]

Re: HELP

Reading between the lines from what has been posted elsewhere (or not posted now), I take it that you never owed this debt or took out the agreement claimed?

And that you only began paying this due to pressure from the debt collectors when you were unsure whether this was one of your previous genuine debts?

I posted on the other forum but did not find them very helpful. I made the payments under pressure when I had other debts and did not know what my legal rights were. I requested the credit agreement and was send a true copy that had the presecribed terms missing and DCA told me that they were unable to find the alleged orignal agreement. I disputed it and letters were sent back and forth for a few months. The DCA then said that they were going to make me bankrupt so I complain to the FOS and loss because I made payments. The DCA demanded money again and I continued to dispute the debt. The DCA did not write to me for about a year and then started making threats again so I sent the complaint back to the FOS. The DCA then sent another credit agreement with a alleged signature which they forged and threaten to take me to court to get a CCJ. I disputed the credit agreement which has a different date to the other one and also does not have all of the prescribed terms.

The FOS have admitted there are discrepancies between the two agreements and that if it went to court that the judge might rule that the agreement is unenforceable however they did not uphold my compaint because I made token payments of one pound.

I need help on my next move ?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: HELP

Did u take out this agreement, as rizzle asked?

ps aren't you also called paris5000 on here? I would have reset your password had you asked

[paris]

Re: HELP

Did u take out this agreement, as rizzle asked?

ps aren't you also called paris5000 on here? I would have reset your password had you asked

Hi Niddy

I forgot my password so set up a new account. I had alot of debts at the time and I was just was making token payments without asking for any proof. I have sorted out the other debts and my credit file is clear. It is just this one debt that I am having problems with and need your help because they have threaten to take out a CCJ.

[Riz]

Re: HELP

As said, did you take out this agreement?

It makes a big difference.

If.....

a) It is yours but you dispute the enforceability of the agreement, that is one matter.

b) If it is not yours, but the DCA has placed your signature on a document you didn't sign, then that is a whole different ball game. Not least of it, falsifying documents and even attempted fraud on the part of the DCA.

If the debt is not yours, then asking for a CCA was perhaps not the best initial approach to take, as it makes it look like the debt was yours, but you wish to challenge it on enforceability, rather than flat out disputing that the debt is yours in the first place.

[paris]

Re: HELP

As said, did you take out this agreement?

It makes a big difference.

If.....

a) It is yours but you dispute the enforceability of the agreement, that is one matter.

b) If it is not yours, but the DCA has placed your signature on a document you didn't sign, then that is a whole different ball game. Not least of it, falsifying documents and even attempted fraud on the part of the DCA.

If the debt is not yours, then asking for a CCA was perhaps not the best initial approach to take, as it makes it look like the debt was yours, but you wish to challenge it on enforceability, rather than flat out disputing that the debt is yours in the first place.

The DCA told me for nearly two years that they did not have a credit agreement and all they could produce was recon then as soon as I send my complaint back to the FOS they then produce a alleged credit agreement with a different date to the true copy and with a signature. I sent letters with my signature on to the DCA before I requested the CCA so they could have forge my signature.

I did not take out credit agreement and I have formally disputed the debt with the DCA and the FOS but because I have made token payments the DCA and the FOS are saying that it is my debt . The debt is unenforceable but the DCA will not back down and have been fighting me for two years.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: HELP

If I can interrupt.

Paris, forget the issue. Concentrate on this very simple question please. Did you take the credit or spend any money in relation to this ALLEGED debt?

This is paramount. Yes or No answer only please?

Edit - what debt is this, ie who is the creditor (bank) that the alleged debt originated?

[paris]

Re: HELP

If I can interrupt.

Paris, forget the issue. Concentrate on this very simple question please. Did you take the credit or spend any money in relation to this ALLEGED debt?

This is paramount. Yes or No answer only please?

Edit - what debt is this, ie who is the creditor (bank) that the alleged debt originated?

The debt is a unsecured loan from a shop for buy now pay later and the DCA brought the debt. I did not take it out.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: HELP

Ok you never took it out. Great that's all we need to know. Forget unenforceability - it is NOT your debt is it?

I'll leave rizzle to continue, thanks for clarifying. Get some sleep, stop worrying - you're in safe hands, you'll get all the help you need to beat this AND get your money back, as it was NOT your debt in the first place - don't forget that ok?

[Riz]

Re: HELP

Right. That makes things both simpler in some ways, but more complicated in others.

First thing. How do you think your signature got on to an agreement for a debt you have never had?

There are 2 likely ways as far as I can see.

1) The DCA has lifted your signature from some correspondence and placed it on a bodged up agreement.

2) At some point previously someone has forged your signature to obtain credit in your name. ID theft etc. And the DCA wasn't able to get hold of that copy at first, which is why it turned up later.

Option (2) is what these things usually turn out to be, but only you knowing your past circumstances, and looking at what appears to have been signed are likely to be able to hazard a guess if that was/is likely.

Either way, someone somewhere has/is attempting to make you liable for a debt you didn't' take out.

That needs to be reported to www.actionfraud.org.uk to get a crime number. You just need to work out what exactly it is, and who, you are reporting.

[Riz]

Re: HELP

Then we have to distance this from the whole CCA enforceability thing.

I can see why you went down that route, but if you genuinely did not take out the debt then requesting a copy agreement under the CCA is not the appropriate way to prove or disprove that.

In fact, if you were not the person who took out the credit, you have no right to ask for and obtain the CCA in the first place.

Making the request gives the creditor/DCA the wrong impression that you do owe the debt and are simply trying to challenge the enforceability of it.

Plus, the DCA is never under a duty to provide a genuine copy of what you actually signed, but can recreate it from the info they have or can get from the original creditor. So in many/most cases, requesting a CCA under s78/79 just isn't going to prove anything.

Then there is the fact that you made payments towards this.

I suspect that you did this as you panicked etc, or weren't in a place where you thought to or could cope with challenging the DCA? Many people do similar things, but the DCA will certainly say:

"If this wasn't your debt, why did you pay it"

and

"You making payments is an admission of liability"

If you are going to successfully argue against them, then you need to be crystal clear on your reasons for the first of those, and very firm that the 2nd is the bullwarks that it is.

[paris]

Re: HELP

Right. That makes things both simpler in some ways, but more complicated in others.

First thing. How do you think your signature got on to an agreement for a debt you have never had?

There are 2 likely ways as far as I can see.

1) The DCA has lifted your signature from some correspondence and placed it on a bodged up agreement.

2) At some point previously someone has forged your signature to obtain credit in your name. ID theft etc. And the DCA wasn't able to get hold of that copy at first, which is why it turned up later.

Option (2) is what these things usually turn out to be, but only you knowing your past circumstances, and looking at what appears to have been signed are likely to be able to hazard a guess if that was/is likely.

Either way, someone somewhere has/is attempting to make you liable for a debt you didn't' take out.

That needs to be reported to www.actionfraud.org.uk to get a crime number. You just need to work out what exactly it is, and who, you are reporting.

I am sure that it is option 1 because the DCA had my signature on file from when I used to sign my letters to them before I request my credit agreement. The DCA also refused to explain why there are two different dates on the agreements. I think that it is going to be very hard to prove that the DCA did this because the alleged signature on the agreement is very similar to my signature. It is very clear to me what they have done because the DCA keep referring to a particular letter that I sent to them and I know for fact that the letter had my signature on it so I think that what they did was copied the signature from that letter and post it on the alleged credit agreement when I sent my complaint back to the FOS.

I also made token payments to the debt for a few years which makes it look like I accepted the debt even through the payments were only one pound. The fact that I paid the DCA is a big problem and people are always going to ask why I made payments if it was not my debt and the fact that I was in a very bad place at the time and did not know what my legal rights were is not going to work which is why I went down the UN route. I have no choice but to carry on with the UN because I made the payment for so long and anyway I have a good case for the UN because the alleged debt is 10 years old and both of the credit agreement are missing the prescribed terms and have different dates on them.


It is not option 2 because I have never had any problems in that area and I regularly check my credit file.

[Riz]

Re: HELP

In that case, you need to report that they appear to have done that, and are demanding money and threatening legal action on the basis of falsified documents.

Once you have a crime number to quote in any letters, the DCA will hopefully realise you are serious in your dispute over liability for the debt.

If don't know the history of what you or the DCA have already written to each other with, but I suspect you need to draw a line under what has gone before and write to them saying that.

- You do not owe this debt and have never owed this debt.
- You are concerned that they appear to have supplied falsified documents containing your signature, and that you have reported the matter to the authorities and obtained a crime number.
- You will also be reporting this to the OFT and trading standards.
- That you made payments because of x, y, z reasons, and that you now realise that this was a mistake. And that you refute that this constitutes any form of acknowlegement of the debt, and it does not make you liable for a debt you did not incur.
- That any legal action will be defended in full, and the matter of the falsification of documents containing a signature will be brought to the courts attention.
- That you require an immediate full refund of any monies paid.
- That you require the immediate removal of any adverse data recorded with the Credit Reference Agencies.

And that is just what I can think of now.....

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: HELP

Forget UN - it's not your debt so legally you cannot utilise it!!

Serious, it's a whole new ballgame now. I'm only responding to clarify the UE element; it's not yours so forget this action. Seriously. Listen to rizzle right now, he knows his stuff & will help you if you pay attention to what he's advising