Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

[Talay]

I had two Egg cards, an original Visa one from 1999 or early 2000 and a Mastercard one from a few years later.

Now I seem to remember being surprised at applying online for the original Visa card, receiving immediate notification of something like a £6500 credit limit and then just having the card arrive at my door.

I specifically "remember" never signing anything and have always thought it must be unenforceable, even way back when it was being serviced correctly. In fact, my vivid recollection is that I was never sent anything to sign. I admit however that my memory may be suspect.

Somewhere down the line I must have asked them for a Mastercard but this could well have been after some flyer pre approval thing. I am less certain that I did not sign anything for this one - I may well have, perhaps around 2002.

I guess the first thing I would like to know is whether anyone else remembers getting an Egg card back in 1999/2000 without ever signing any forms.

Secondly there must have been people defaulting on cards from that date so has anyone investigated enforceability ?

Lastly, has anyone else had both cards and was the Mastercard simply piggy backed on what they assumed was a valid agreement for the Visa card or was there a new agreement ?

Thanks

[MrsD]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

Talay

You have to request a CCA and then Niddy will look at it then we'll know whether its enforceable or not. Can't make any assumptions about any creditor until you see what they are producing as paperwork.

[Talay]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

Talay

You have to request a CCA and then Niddy will look at it then we'll know whether its enforceable or not. Can't make any assumptions about any creditor until you see what they are producing as paperwork.

Can't do that I'm afraid as there has been no contact since 2004 when I stopped the direct debit. CCJ falls off in 2014 (data from Trustonline) so don't really want to make contact now.

Egg were fairly new then, having started in 1998 I understand. They also cherry picked at the time, with very low APRs and low risk customers. Their business model changed later to go mass market but not for some time. I would not have expected their terms to have changed until that time, some years later.

I'm hoping someone else with an Egg card from 1999/2000 has come forward with their CCA or it is generally known whether the application procedure was as I remember it, online only, with nothing signed.

[mystery1]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

Talay

You have to request a CCA and then Niddy will look at it then we'll know whether its enforceable or not. Can't make any assumptions about any creditor until you see what they are producing as paperwork.

If it's not signed it's not enforceable. Tick boxes are allowed from Dec 2004 IIRC.s78 may or may not contain a signature but it doesn't need to. If you didn't sign pre 2004 then 127(3) comes in to play when you assert that you did not sign and you should win.

M1

[MrsD]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

its academical as one seem to have a ccj already.

I agree Talay, there is no point harassing them if its about to fall off.

[Talay]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

its academical as one seem to have a ccj already.

I agree Talay, there is no point harassing them if its about to fall off.

If a CCJ has been issued on the back of an agreement which itself is unenforceable then surely the CCJ would be null and void ?

As I understand it, a CCJ has no time limit, so it is entirely possible that someone could pick it up at some point in the future and come after you with it. Declaring it void would head that off.

Not only that but because the CCJ does not fall off until 2014, some two plus years from now, any action which could remove it earlier would be highly beneficial.

I'm sort of between a rock and a hard place in that if I knew it was unenforceable, that the CCJ had to be rescinded and my credit file cleared, then I would be beating a path to their door in the morning.

My fall back position of keeping under radar until 2014 only means that for a brief period in 2014 I will be clean. However, as I raise my head above the parapet and (hopefully) obtain a mortgage, this could trigger someone to come looking. Having it made unenforceable would remove that possibility.

[Talay]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

If it's not signed it's not enforceable. Tick boxes are allowed from Dec 2004 IIRC.s78 may or may not contain a signature but it doesn't need to. If you didn't sign pre 2004 then 127(3) comes in to play when you assert that you did not sign and you should win.

M1

I swear that my utmost recollection was that nothing was signed but it could easily have been sent with the card and I just signed it then rather than specifically signing it before they sent out the card.

Yet in 1996/7 American Express did send a gold charge card simply by my having flown upper class on Virgin Atlantic.

I also seem to remember there being a Marbles card which I applied for but because I only received some pathetic £500/1000 limit I never used / never fully signed up for it. I had the card but never telephoned to turn it on so to speak. Again, this was in 1999/2000.

[MrsD]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

if the debts are unenforceable, the time to dispute was before the CCJ was granted. That is what we do here, every single day, fight off the creditors before it gets to court, because once it gets there, there are no guarantees. Hopefully some of our legal experts will pop along but I think it would be a hard call to take them to court to get the CCJ set aside on the basis that it was UE, personally its not something I would try.

[SXGuy]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

2 years left with CCJ, would i bother fighting it? probably not.

[mystery1]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

If it's not signed it's not enforceable. Tick boxes are allowed from Dec 2004 IIRC.s78 may or may not contain a signature but it doesn't need to. If you didn't sign pre 2004 then 127(3) comes in to play when you assert that you did not sign and you should win.

M1

CCJ info wasn't there when i posted that. I'm Scottish so no little about ccj.

M1

[Talay]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

if the debts are unenforceable, the time to dispute was before the CCJ was granted. That is what we do here, every single day, fight off the creditors before it gets to court, because once it gets there, there are no guarantees. Hopefully some of our legal experts will pop along but I think it would be a hard call to take them to court to get the CCJ set aside on the basis that it was UE, personally its not something I would try.

I know but I had no choice as I was never informed that it was going to CCJ because I was overseas and I did not have an address to give them so they presumably just wrote to my old address and the post was binned. I know this is not a sufficient reason / excuse in itself.

A CCJ is issued for non repayment for a debt which is enforceable isn't it ? If it is, then it stands to right that a CCJ cannot be issued for a debt which has been proven unenforceable. I mean, a court cannot force you to pay something which you have no legal obligation to pay can it ?

From here National Debtline England Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 12 How To Set Aside A Judgment In The County Court it seems relatively straightforward to apply to have it set aside.

WHEN WILL THE COURT AGREE TO SET ASIDE A JUDGMENT?

The county court rules set out when you can apply to set aside a judgment. For example:

an order was made against you in your absence, in certain circumstances;

there may be an error in the judgment;

you want to put in a defence and did not have the opportunity to do this;

the proceedings did not follow the court rules.

WHEN IS IT UP TO THE COURT TO DECIDE?

The court may agree to set aside the default judgment even if you did not send in a reply form within the time limit if:

the court thinks you have a real chance of a successful defence to the claim; or

the court thinks there is some other good reason why the judgment should be set aside.

There is no time limit for making an application on these grounds but the court will look at whether you made the application ‘promptly’.

The court will take into account how quickly you made the application and may want to know the reason for any delay, e.g. you only just found out about the judgment.

Surely a good reason to set it aside would be that it was unenforceable ?

If successful at that point, it would appear at an end. The debt is unenforceable and the CCJ will be removed. The agencies can then remove it from their records and the only pertinent date would be the default date and as that is more than 6 years past, the record would be clear !

[Talay]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

2 years left with CCJ, would i bother fighting it? probably not.

CCJ goes on forever I understand; it merely is unreported after 6 years.

But, say some system monitors these things (fairly easy to set up I think) and it flags up a CCJ holder who has just obtained a £500,000 mortgage.

Now I don't know if they have to go back to court to bring the CCJ back to life but if they do, it could potentially start a new 6 year timeline.

The assumption must be that the debtor has turned their life around and if they can afford a large mortgage, then can not only afford to pay back the CCJ but you can be damn sure they don't want their credit file screwed up again for another 6 years.

In fact, I bet there is money in going after this if it can be legally resurrected after so many years.

[PlanB]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

Probably the best reason to set aside would be because you never received the court papers as they were sent to the old address and the CCJ obtained by default without you having the opportunity to defend, rather than the debt being UE.

Flowerpower you're an expert at lateral thinking

If the CCJ is set aside because he didn't get the summons, then if they come after him again with a new summons he can defend it with UE (if that's true)

[Talay]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

Probably the best reason to set aside would be because you never received the court papers as they were sent to the old address and the CCJ obtained by default without you having the opportunity to defend, rather than the debt being UE.

It appears they are a step ahead of us on that one and specifically exclude that as a reason to set aside. It would be too obvious and everyone in the country would be back at court to set aside every CCJ ever handed down if all you had to do was move or pretend never to have received any paperwork.

National Debtline England Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 12 How To Set Aside A Judgment In The County Court

I DID NOT GET THE COURT PAPERS

If you did not get the court papers through the post the court will not always agree that this is a good reason to set aside the judgment. The court is allowed to send the papers to your usual or last known address (even if you have moved). If you have given your creditors your new address then they should contact you there.

If they still send the papers to your old address then you may have good reason for the judgment to be set aside.

If you did not get the claim form, you will usually need to show you have a defence or other good reason as well, for the court to set aside the judgment unless:

you can prove you gave the creditor your new address;
the claim was not made following the rules, for example, they were sent to the wrong address, lost in the post; or
the post office returned the claim papers as they were not able to deliver them.

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Egg credit cards - any known unenforceability ?

It appears they are a step ahead of us on that one and specifically exclude that as a reason to set aside. It would be too obvious and everyone in the country would be back at court to set aside every CCJ ever handed down if all you had to do was move or pretend never to have received any paperwork.

As may once have happened when there was a number of companies promising - for a fee - to get people's court judgements removed; the requirement to have a valid defence was brought in to stop such people from wasting court time.

I'd say that, four years after the CCJ, you stand bugger all chance of getting the judgements set aside, regardless of how convincing you have persuaded yourself your defence might be. You might stand a better chance if you could shew you could not have made the application earlier due to some serious mental illness, being incarcerated in gaol or being the "guest" of insurgents in Thingistan.

As for the risk of someone monitoring old CCJs for new credit activity, or buying old, unsatisfied CCJs for prompt enforcement, there is still the matter that they'd have to go back to court to revive the judgement - section 24 of the Limitation Act 1980 (link) rather suggests such antics would be less than successful:

Time limit for actions to enforce judgments.

(1)An action shall not be brought upon any judgment after the expiration of six years from the date on which the judgment became enforceable.
(2)No arrears of interest in respect of any judgment debt shall be recovered after the expiration of six years from the date on which the interest became due.