Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

[angelsoxx]

Hello,

A very kind person pointed me in the direction of this fantastic forum, I'm feeling more optimistic already!
Any advise is gratefully received!

I'm hoping for some advise with the letter i recieved from Lloys tsb in response to my CCA request. The letter i received is below:

Your card number XXXXXXXXXXXXX

07 march 2012

I write in response to your request for a copy of your consumer credit agreement under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974 (CCA).


I have enclosed with this letter a copy of the reconstituted version of your executed agreement, a copy of your current terms and conditions and a signed statement of your account.
By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 78. There is no requirement under the CCA to provide you with a copy of the original SIGNED agreement.
We are endeavoring to locate the copy of your signed agreement but please be assured we would not have opened a credit card account without having sight of a signed agreement. For the avoidance of any doubt, we have set out in the appendix to this letter your rights under section 78.

Having satisfied our obligation under section 78, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the provision of copy agreements.

The office of fair trading (OFT) has recently issued a press release with Ray Watson, Director of the OFT's consumer credit group, stating "consumers have a right to information on debts they owe, but it is important that they realise that these sections of the act cannot be used to write off legitimately owed debts."

They included a copy of the current terms and conditions, and also a copy of the terms and conditions dated " effective from 3 december 2001"
They DID NOT include a statement of my account, signed or otherwise, nor did they include an appendix to the letter, but most interestingly, the address on both the current terms and conditions on both the current terms and conditions (applicable from 26 november 2011) and the terms and conditions from when I apparently took out the debt (effective from 3 december 2001) both have my current address on them.

This is interesting because I wasn't at THIS address at the time this agreement would have originally been taken out and have actually moved twice in the time between 2001 and 2011!
There are not dates to show when agreement was taken out, literally only the terms and conditions for roughly around those times.

This is also good : " please be assured we would not have opened a credit card account without having sight of a signed agreement" I didn't open this credit card account with them! I believe the original agreement was with Morgan Stanley (not 100% on this as it was at some point before 2004), taken out at a previous address, but it was taken over by Lloydswhile I was at my current address. Does the fact they took it over while at my current address make a difference? I never signed a thing with them at my current address, and the first thing i knew that they'd taken over the account was when I received a statement in my name from lloyds for a card I'd never taken out, I called them and eventually discovered they had taken over the account.
I never got a letter informing me the debt had been reassigned.

I am 110% certain that the address on the reconstituted "original" terms and conditions is incorrect, so where does this stand me? Also, they haven't (to the best of my understanding) supplied me with the documents to fulfill their obligation under section 78 as they have not given me a statement of my account.

The letter i got from Lloyds was very unfriendly indeed, but it seems to me there are a number of things wrong with it.
Any advise on how to continue from here would be gratefully received. I don't quite know what to do as they've said they "will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the provision of copy agreements"

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

Yadda yadda

Same old nonsense - cant believe you typed that lot out (seen it a million times before)

However I need to see the agreement if you can email it: then you'll be better placed

[Deepie]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

Sending your Agreement to Niddy

If you're thinking of sending me your agreement to check, please read this thread! :---> User Guide - Sending your Agreement to Niddy

You can start by sending your Agreement to Niddy for a look ........
From the letter I think he will say send this back.....CCA Query - Missing Prescribed Terms

[angelsoxx]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

Thanks, I'm not able to scan and email them right now (hence me typing out that letter!)

The agreement from 2001 starts off (more typing)

Lloyds tsb asset gold and platinum credit card terms and conditions
these conditions are effective from 3 december 2001
credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974

Parties to the agreement: we, lloyds tsb bank plx (address) and you the principle card holder

this is a copy of your agreement for you to keep.
It includes a notice about your cancellation rights which you should read.

Then it has my name and my CURRENT address- years before I moved here.


Sorry i can't scan the whole thing. So it's clear they are unlikely to have the correct info, I was going to send the template for forged documents received, as they've obviously made up the reconstituted agreement rather than remade it from actual existing documents, and also add on in that letter that they failed to send me a signed statement of account.

Or should I send the missing prescribed terms and add in the forged address bit?

[Riz]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

Can you take pic of the agreement with a digital camera/phone instead and send to Niddy?

[angelsoxx]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

and i have emailed Niddy

[angelsoxx]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

Can you take pic of the agreement with a digital camera/phone instead and send to Niddy?

Genius! Do i need to do the whole thing? it goes om over both side over a lot of pages.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

Just cover letter and the main agreement page please

agreements@all-about-debt.co.uk

[angelsoxx]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

just photographing and editing out the personal bits now :-)

[Deepie]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

just photographing and editing out the personal bits now :-)

No need to it's safe with Niddy...........

[mystery1]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

If they have the wrong address for you then they can't enforce. It's that simple unless they can correct it.

Best bet is to write to them and say it's a fake agreement as you didn't reside there then. You will find out if they have the correct one, by reply, or you'll have great evidence of their failings in court.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2009/3417.html

60. As a matter of common sense it is difficult to see how a copy of an agreement can omit the names of the parties. It might be thought that the address of the debtor, however, was immaterial, at least to the debtor, who can be assumed to know what it was at the time, if different from his present address. However, as noted above, any application of the concept of materiality must not override the requirements of s78 and the Copies Regulations properly understood. In my view it is clear that the name and address must be provided:

M1

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

well what they sent is a total recon anyway and is thus 100%

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

If they have the wrong address for you then they can't enforce. It's that simple unless they can correct it.

Best bet is to write to them and say it's a fake agreement as you didn't reside there then. You will find out if they have the correct one, by reply, or you'll have great evidence of their failings in court.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2009/3417.html

60. As a matter of common sense it is difficult to see how a copy of an agreement can omit the names of the parties. It might be thought that the address of the debtor, however, was immaterial, at least to the debtor, who can be assumed to know what it was at the time, if different from his present address. However, as noted above, any application of the concept of materiality must not override the requirements of s78 and the Copies Regulations properly understood. In my view it is clear that the name and address must be provided:

M1

and whilst you're there you need to relate this to point 61....

• Having decided that question, there is the consequential question of how the creditor is to provide the original name and address. Consistent with my finding on Issue 1 (a) I take the view that it is open to the creditor to provide the name and address within the reconstituted copy from whatever source it has of those details. It does not have to take them from the executed agreement itself, which is what Mr Uff and Mrs Thompson contend. The difference between the parties here is graphically illustrated by what has happened in Carey. Initially the creditor reconstructed the executed agreement - as shown at pages 197-201 - but without the name and address filled in. Then this was added to the reconstruction from HSBC's records.

this means that they can just remedy it by sending a new one using the name and address so it will always fail as part of any UE argument. Sorry, but a name and address alone is not enough to utilise unenforceability and is rather easy to remedy.

[mystery1]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

and whilst you're there you need to relate this to point 61....

this means that they can just remedy it by sending a new one using the name and address so it will always fail as part of any UE argument. Sorry, but a name and address alone is not enough to utilise unenforceability and is rather easy to remedy.

You will find out if they have the correct one, by reply, or you'll have great evidence of their failings in court.

It can be.



M1

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Lloyds CCA- wrong address! Advise please :-)

It can be.



M1

haha unlikely though as any decent paralegal will pick up on the point that they need to send a new copy with the name and address within the CPR response thus alleviating any claim of defence.

Seen it happen too often..... sadly