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**Never-In-Doubt** · 19 January 2011, 15:01

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Originally posted by findingaway View Post

UPDATE 17/01
I was really worried at first but now more angry that they can come in all guns blazing with a threat!! I sent a letter to them on Saturday & sent a copy of last bill that showed any arrears which was £400 in 2007/8, which was paid that year to the bailiffs. I've got all bills out & there's never been an arrears amount added on since & I've never hada bill for that amount. I told them how alarmed I was at their threat & asked them to forward documentation which shows that I have been informed of this debt & amounts they have received from me since 2001/2 so I can cross reference as their records do not appear to tally with mine. Just see what happens now.... not going to worry....FAW

Council tax never becomes statute barred, is what I think they are saying.... however you done the right thing, just argue your point.... if you have proof you paid then fine, if not then you can SAR the council as much as you can anyone else that has data on you

But you do right, in not worrying.

**billypre** · 22 January 2011, 14:19

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

About council tax - i am actually pretty sure that there is a limitation period ( in scotland anyway) but it is monstrous. Something like 15-20 years. Also remember reading something about councils have only 6 years to get liability orders or something, would need to search for proper proof though.

**billypre** · 22 January 2011, 14:22

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Payplan state -

Council Tax

If the Council Tax was due more than 6 years ago then the council are unable to ask the Court for a Liability Order (a liability order allows the council to deduct the Council Tax debt from your wages or benefits). However, it is unlikely that the council will have allowed this to happen, and they will usually have obtained a Liability Order before the 6 years are up.

I think i may have been wrong about there being a limitation of 15-20 years though but will keep looking.

**Never-In-Doubt** · 22 January 2011, 14:30

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Originally posted by billypre View Post

Payplan state -

Council Tax

If the Council Tax was due more than 6 years ago then the council are unable to ask the Court for a Liability Order (a liability order allows the council to deduct the Council Tax debt from your wages or benefits). However, it is unlikely that the council will have allowed this to happen, and they will usually have obtained a Liability Order before the 6 years are up.

I think i may have been wrong about there being a limitation of 15-20 years though but will keep looking.

Council Tax is never written off mate/statute barred - but yea, they must get the liability order within the limitations act period (5 or 6 years)...

I think this may be a good question for our newbie, Caspar - i've PM'd them cos they know Council tax rules

**billypre** · 22 January 2011, 14:34

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Took this from nationaldebthelpline.

Council Tax/Community Charge

Arrears of Council Tax and Community Charge can be recovered for up to 20 years. This time limit runs from the date of the final demand, or from the last time that the debt was acknowledged by you (or an agent acting on your behalf). If there was a ‘prolonged and unexplained delay’ in recovery, it may be possible to challenge any new recovery action.

Bear in mind, this is specific to Scotland, i didn't find info for other parts of UK.

**findingaway** · 22 January 2011, 15:56

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Hiya, Thanks niddy & billy I've not got a liability order but that's not to say I never had one, just odd they pursued later ones but not this. I sent council a letter asking for all docunmentation & payments I'd made since 2001 & inc a copy of tax bill in 2007 showing arrears. Bf of 400, I told them I thought they'd been added to the amount I'd to pay that year & since then there's never been anything bf as arrears, I've got a letter back today saying thy're investigating my query, so fingers crossed it's someone's cock up!

Billy I've cocked up & put a message as a visitor instead of pm (using phone & can't see prop lol), tried to send pm when I realised but ur box was full so ill try later...

Nid or anyone else who knows, when u get a chance will you explain the default thing to me re 36 mths & also if it only counts for settled accts?

Nothing received from dca's today!! Have a good day, FAW

**caspar** · 22 January 2011, 19:04

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

The Limitations Act 1980 states the council must get a liability order before 6 years has expired (from the date of the CT demand). If you have SAR'd them you will see whether or not they have got a LO. If they haven't there is little they can do. If they have then you have to look to The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

Paragraph 20 (5) states a Demand Notice shall require payment of the chargeable amount.

It looks in your case as though they have done this.

Paragraph 21 states that unless an agreement has already been reached (have you tried?) then monies owed under para 20(5) "shall require the amount mentioned to be paid by instalments in accordance with Part 1 of Schedule 1.

This suggests to me that even if you owe the money and they have a valid Liability Order which I would imagine you would want to see after all this time, you should still be able to pay by instalments or agree an arrangement with the council.

The debt, being public monies, never becomes Statute Barred as such, but the threats of bankruptcy etc... are more I believe to scare you into doing something rather than just ignoring it.

The key thing for you now is the presence or absence of the liability order and the date of that LO if it exists.

**findingaway** · 22 January 2011, 19:27

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Thanks Caspar that's really helpful. I didn't sar them as such just asked them to forward documentation as it was the first I'd heard of the debt & wasn't anywhere on the documents I held.

I did have a clear -out of stuff I didn't need last y,r so don't want to say i def haven't had one, just think i wouldn't have done as I kept the LO from other years. No I've not tried to negotiate yet, as I don't think we owe the money. I am hopeful that if we do, they will see that my bills since then had no mention of this debt & will allow instalments I can afford. Other thing is that all our tax bills since then have been in joint names, I just received a letter for this & it's just in hubby's & has a different acct number but it does say it's for our address. I'm feeling quite relaxed about this anyway & will wait to see what they say before I do anything else. We're not going to let them bankrupt him! Will keep you all posted FAW

**caspar** · 22 January 2011, 19:50

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Brilliant attitude - glad you're relaxed about it.

If the council do not supply what you have asked then I would send this:

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...3&postcount=17

The only problem with sending an SAR to a council is you get pages and pages back (I've just done one and got in excess of 150 pages back). However, the one thing you're looking for should be very clear - the Liability Order. You will also of course be able to check what date they made the initial demand (that's when the 6 years starts ticking) and what payments you made. It does seem strange that it hasn't reared its head earlier, and I think the way the council has written to you after all this time in such a threatening way is appalling.

**caspar** · 22 January 2011, 20:16

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Sorry to keep bombarding you, but just found this. The relevant bit is 31(2). It MAY (don't get your hopes up, just a thought) be possible to use this clause from the 1992 Regulations to have the amount set aside. Would a court consider they have done this, "as soon as practicable?"

In my opinion this would be very arguable - why have they not issued a demand earlier?

Demand notices: final adjustment

31.—(1) This regulation applies where—

(a)a notice has been issued by a billing authority under this Part requiring a payment or payments to be made by a person in respect of his liability to pay council tax for a financial year or part of a financial year,

(b)the payment or payments required to be made are found to be in excess of or less than his liability for the year or the part, and

(c)provision for adjusting the amounts required under the notice and (as appropriate) for the making of additional payments or the repaying or crediting of any amount overpaid is not made by any other provision of this Part, of the Act or of any agreement entered into under regulation 21(5).

(2) The billing authority shall as soon as practicable after the expiry of the year or the part of a year serve a further notice on the person stating the amount of his liability for the year or the part, and adjusting (by reference to that amount) the amounts required to be paid under the notice referred to in paragraph (1)(a).

**findingaway** · 22 January 2011, 20:24

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Thanks for the link Caspar, have you had a similar prob? I couldn't believe the threatening letter either, but shouldn't have been so surprised.

In the past I had a dd that failed but I hadn't realised and as the next payment was due a couple of days after I stupidly presumed they'd take both, but they didn't & 1st thing I knew about it was that they were taking me to court for a LO. I rang straight away & explained but she said it was too late they were going for the order. I explained I had the money waiting in the bank but she wouldn't let me pay it! Talk about banging your head against the wall. I rang back the day after & demanded they take my paymment, which they did but said it would make no difference as I'd broken the agreement to pay by dd so I said I wanted to re-set the dd but she said she'd be very surprised if the council would accept it but she took my details reluctantly &said to be prepared that I would have to pay the full amount which was about another 8 instalments! I pleaded really, telling her allabout losing my job etc, but she just answered robotically BUT they just started taking payments by dd again with no further comms!! That's only thing that worries me they are not approachable at all!! I'll just borrow the money (from family) if I have to though they won't get me worried ever again! FAW

**caspar** · 22 January 2011, 20:52

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Hi FAW,

I've not had a similar problem, but have got SERIOUS debt problems (which genuinely are not an issue for me now for weird reasons!) However three years ago I got behind with Council Tax and Non-domestic Rates and had the bailiffs on my back for over two years. It was not a nice time.

Now I'm mostly recovered from an illness which sadly stops me working, I have time on my hands and find consumer issues fascinating. Through deciding to fight back against my own council and their bailiffs I've learnt bits and pieces, and through other sites have now helped a good few people get debts taken back to the council from the bailiffs - that is my real strength, though I don't always follow conventional routes!

Yours was a bit more unusual so I hope I've read the regs correctly! It really gets my back up that after all this time they can write to innocent people making huge threats as though they're doing nothing wrong.

I've also just won an eight year long battle on behalf of my wife with the DWP who said they had a proven case of fraud against her from before I even met her. Its been a long battle, but they've finally admitted they didn't have the evidence they claimed and I'm now debating whether to just accept what they've offered by way of apology or to really go for their throats. The problem is that's not really in my nature however much they deserve it. DWP are another one who think they can do what they want when they want IMO.

Take care,

Casps

**findingaway** · 22 January 2011, 21:24

Re: Findingaway's UE Diary

Go Caspar lol. It's great to see people helping people, & thanks for helping me. We got in trouble with council & bailiffs seemed to live at our house for a yr, but when they came they never said what the debt related to just the council & amount & as they hammer on the door at 8am I ended up just giving them the money. In 2007 they made 3 visits & got paid in full. I was only able to do it as I'd lost my mum & she'd left me a bit & it just went to the

Last time though I'd none left but had just been finished from work due to capacity so had a payout from them that paid it. After that though we paid by dd to stop it ever getting as frightening again. It's hard cos hubby is self employed & recession hit his game hard & I'm still on incapacity benefit. I've been trying to get my retirement on ill health grounds, I got rejected & lost my first appeal but my second appeal is in now, just waiting for verdict! You don't know how to twist the grip there do you?? lol only joking. Thanks again for your help - feeling so much more empowered by this fantastic site - they're right knowledge IS power!!
FAW

**findingaway** · 2 February 2011, 22:49

Re: findingaway's Council Tax Problems

Hiya just a bit to update. Well I rcd their "evidence" a letter saying they understand my alarm at the letter & acct was in just hubby's name to 2002 then changed to joint with a new no. & they sent copies of the original 2 bills, that's it!!! Bottom of letter said pay in 7 days or ring. I don't. Think so.....

I'm going to write back & ask for all docs as before & see what I get back, if I'm still not happy I'll sar them. Even if it ends up a legit debt I'm going to make sure myself first!!

Will update when more to tell, FAW

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