Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

[WorriedGrandma]

A summary:


Type of account: Unsecured Loan of £15,000 from Lloyds TSB in daughter's name only

Date commenced: Can't find date on CCA, but Nov/Dec 2006

Approx balance: £8,500

Date last paid full payment: May? 2010

Joint DMP with ex with CCCS: £121 per month June 2010 to May 2011

DMP with CCCS in daughter's sole name: £47 per month from August 2011

Status: Letter Nov 2010 saying willing to accept £7500 as final settlement and show debt as "partially satisfied".
Account owner: Lloyds TSB




Type of account: Unsecured Loan from Black Horse joint names - daughter and ex both/each responsible for WHOLE debt
Date commenced: October 2009

Approx balance: £7,527

Date last paid proper payment: May 2010

Joint DMP with ex with CCCS: £139 per month June 2010 to May 2011

DMP with CCCS in daughter's sole name: £50 per month from August 2011

Status: Assigned to one of Marlin's companies October 2011

Account owner: Marlin Financial Services??? A letter from Blackhorse, dated 26/10/11, says:
"We hereby give notice of the assignment of your above Unsecured Loan account which had a debt balance of £7778.41 on 20 October 2011.
On 20 October 2011 your account was assigned to ********** [a company that is part of the Marlin Group, which I am reluctant to mention, because a Google search brings up only a few results. In fact, it was a search for this company that lead me to the CAG website]" A paragraph follows saying about communications. Their address is shown as Marlin Financial Services. A letter from Marlin was enclosed in the envelope. The second and third paragraphs of the Marlin letter say: "This letter is to confirm that ******* has had assigned to it all right, title, interest and benefit in your above account, originated by Black Horse Limited. ******** is now entitled to all sums owed under the account.

********** has appointed us as its managing agent of your account. We will liaise with your debt management company, or with you if you want us to, and will process payments made on your account."
My daughter did not communicate in any way with Marlin or *******, but now a CCA letter has been sent - see below.




Type of account: Lloyds TSB overdraft joint names - daughter and ex both/each responsible for WHOLE debt

Date commenced: overdrawn by around £2,500 - £3,000 since, at least June 2008.

Approx balance: £2908

Joint DMP with ex with CCCS: £64 per month June 2010 to May 2011

DMP with CCCS in daughter's sole name: £25 per month from August 2011

Status: Letter from SCM Solicitors, in October 2011, demanding the £33 "unplanned" overdraft (exceeding £3000 limit) - Formal Demand prior to commencement of legal proceedings. They are/were adding monthly fees, which sometimes exceeded £100, and gave the impression the account was being used. The account has not been used since around June 2010. A letter was sent, earlier this year, telling them the account was closed and asking that fees not be added.

Account owner: Lloyds TSB



Type of account: Egg Credit Card in daughter's name only

Date commenced: Sometime between June 2008 and June 2010

Approx balance: £1,485

Joint DMP with ex with CCCS: £24 per month June 2010 to May 2011

DMP with CCCS in daughter's sole name: £8 per month from August 2011

Status: Not sure?

Account owner: Barclaycard



Type of account: Littlewoods Catalogue in daughter's name only

Date commenced: Don't know

Approx balance: £100? £176? See below.

Joint DMP with ex with CCCS: £6 per month June 2010 to May 2011

DMP with CCCS in daughter's sole name: £5 per month from August 2011

Status: Default Notice served under Section 87(1) of CCA 1974 in November 2011

Account owner: NDR/Shop Direct



The situation is that my daughter was with her ex from December 2002 to May 2011. He is a greedy, selfish, ignorant bully. My daughter is fairly frugal. He ran up debts. They undertook balance transfers, so much of the debt ended up in my daughter's name. Consequently, my daughter is now responsible for over £20,000 debt, of which £10,000 is in her sole name. (Her ex has debts in his sole name of around £5,000 to £6,000. As far as we know, he is, currently, paying nothing toward the joint debt. (Their total, joint debts were, previously, around £31,000.) (I did, once, pay off £2000.)

Under the joint DMP they paid £446 per month, expecting to be debt-free in about 6 years, My daughter, currently pays a total of £130, with an expected debt-free date of 2025. All the debts are unsecured. She has avoided IVA/insolvency, not wanting to lose the mortgaged house.

The worry about the debts has had a detrimental effect on the health of both of us, and I worry terribly about my granddaughter suffering.

My daughter’s total monthly income is £1574 (including Tax Credits etc.). Her/their mortgage is £636 a month, which only she has been paying since June?/July? 2011. I fear for the mortgage rate increasing and house prices falling. The mortgage was for £157,000, with £142,000 outstanding. Her house might be worth around £155-£160k? Despite being the one to run-up the debts, her ex-partner believes he has at least 5k equity in the house.

Before finding out about the debts, I was hoping I might sell my house and put the proceeds towards something for them, with a granny-annexe. I was fortunate to be able to be mortgage-free at a fairly young age, because I inherited from relatives (though, not being investment-minded have less than I should). I believe it should be my granddaughter (not me) who now benefits from this security. I lived, for a short time in a motorhome. I have a buyer for my house and want to buy a motorhome. I’m thinking the sale of my house, less £20-30k for a modest motorhome, might leave £120,000 for my daughter. However, I recall reading, that under a DMP, my daughter would need to pay her debts before reducing a mortgage. And then there would be the problem of her ex benefiting? We were wondering whether my daughter would be able to get another mortgage, with a substantial deposit? I am only on a meagre Ill Health Retirement Pension and DLA. It doesn’t seem we can afford to run 2 homes.

I acknowledge we need to speak with a family solicitor and will organise this very soon.

I think that's enough for one post. I'll continue below ..... and post details of CCA request to Marlin and letter to NDR.

There might be some more information here:
As my name suggests: worried about my daughter's debts..
........... though it might be out-of-date now.

Thank you.

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Regarding Marlin, an AAD CCA was sent, recorded on Monday 20th February, which would have reached them on Tuesday 21st. Their reply, dated 23rd, acknowledged the request and enclosed a statement of balance and payments since October 2011. They said they did not hold the Credit Agreement and had requested a copy from the original creditor. A copy was sent, (matching the one we hold) with a letter dated 12th March (18? days after acknowledging the request). What do we need to do now? Thank you.

I wanted to post the contents of a letter sent to NDR, but I don't seem to be able to highlight the PDF to copy it. Ahh! done it:

I know it's wrong, but, although some of the companies might be adding fees, charges and interest, these are the only ones giving trouble:

"I refer to telephone calls made to your Accounts Department on 0844 811 5507 and Payments Section on 0844 822 4626 in January and February this year. I make payments to you via CCCS,who maintain that these payments are being refunded to them by you. You maintain you have no knowledge of the refunds.
In May 2011 the account balance was £138.38.
I paid £1 in June 2011 and £1 in July 2011, when setting up a Debt Management Plan (i.e. £2).
CCCS have sent (or tried to send) payments of £5 per month since August (i.e. £35).
Hence the account balance should be £138.38 minus £37 = £101.38.
However, it appears, due to you returning payments, you have added 5 Default Fees of £12 each from July 2011 to December 2011, totalling £60.
You have suggested that CCCS might contact “Outside Bodies” on 0844 8224821, but they are unable to do so.
Trying to resolve this problem is costing me considerable time and money in letters, emails and phone calls. I wish I had sought the money to settle this relatively trivial account prior to setting upthe Debt Management Plan.
I wish to make an offer to resolve that will suitably please both parties. I am able to raise £100 from a relative and wish to offer this as an ex-gratia payment in full and final settlement of the account. This offer is made on the clear understanding that, if accepted, neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that I will be released from any liability with no reference or future ability to quote or use Penny v Cole[Pinnel 1602] in trying to recoup any written off balance. I also request that, if accepted, you will mark any entry on a credit reference agency file relating to the above account as "satisfied" in full.
If you're happy with my proposal, please respond confirming each of the above points on official letter headed paper, confirming that you're happy for a single payment of £100"

[LooLoo]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Can I ask one question (Welcome by the way) was your daughter married to her ex partner? and if so are the divorcing?

Regarding the above please don't worry and someone with a bit better knowledge than me will be along.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

bear in mind Lloyds defaults are dodgy so if you have the DN, lets take a peek please (just blank personals out and post up here as Paul would be best served to check them based on him winning the case that brought this to light).....

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Thank you LooLoo, Flowerpower and Niddy.

My daughter married in 2001, but separated from her husband within the year. They have never got around to divorce. She was living with (not married to) the ex, to whom I refer, from 2002 to 2011; the later is the father of her 7 year old child.

My daughter has taken the Lloyds letter to work today, to scan it and post on here.

The project foremost in my mind is Marlin (second summary in my first post). I'm sure I understood this better a few months back, but now feel confused. Any thoughts on my next move?:

Regarding Marlin, an AAD CCA was sent, recorded on Monday 20th February, which would have reached them on Tuesday 21st. Their reply, dated 23rd, acknowledged the request and enclosed a statement of balance and payments since October 2011. They said they did not hold the Credit Agreement and had requested a copy from the original creditor. A copy was sent, (matching the one we hold) with a letter dated 12th March (18? days after acknowledging the request). What do we need to do now? Thank you.

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Thank you, Flowerpower. I'll have to get my daughter to scan the Black Horse (now Marlin?) CCA tomorrow.

I should have said in my previous post, but what is in my mind is the question of whether the "assignment" described means that Marlin now actually "own" the debt. I thought this was asked in the AAD CCA letter. (In fact, I recall much more information was requested in the AAD CCA letter, than just a copy CCA?)

I once read (not on this forum) a letter template suggesting that the original creditors were happy with the pittance paid to them by companies like Marlin. And that I never asked for Marlin to poke their nose into my affairs, so be thankful for this letter, because it's all they'll get from me.

I did a lot of reading a few months ago, and thought I understood. I'm afraid it's all a bit of a blur now.

[LooLoo]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Thank you LooLoo, Flowerpower and Niddy.

My daughter married in 2001, but separated from her husband within the year. They have never got around to divorce. She was living with (not married to) the ex, to whom I refer, from 2002 to 2011; the later is the father of her 7 year old child.

My daughter has taken the Lloyds letter to work today, to scan it and post on here.

The project foremost in my mind is Marlin (second summary in my first post). I'm sure I understood this better a few months back, but now feel confused. Any thoughts on my next move?:

Sorry I will leave the others to speak about the acutal debts...

but realationship wise... the ex has some obligation to their child - and he may "think" he is entitled to xx out of the equity of the house but I am afraid mothers have a lot more rights - shame that they were not married as that really does help... But I am sure - and you will need to check this out but the father has to contribute towards the upkeep maintanance of the childs upbringing which included a place to live - I know my current partner pays towards the former home as well as maintanence for each child which will continue until the child is 18 or leave full time edcuation - this i "think" is the norm. Obviously there are triggers in their agreement such as if the ex wife co-habits or her icome rises etc....... and obviously should all the kids leave home she will have the option of selling the home or buying Mr Loo - but he is not entitled to 50% or the equity i think they ended up on 45%?

Each case is obv different.

Also unfortunately i know when I divorced my ex and I had debt in my name and he had debt in his sole name and also joint debt and at one point he was trying to get all the debt added togother and then us pay 50/50 each - but we were told (and unfortuantley for your daughter) that we were each only liable for the 50/50 of the joint debt and our debt was our own liability. Unless you could prove the debt was run up jointly - and to be honest for us (as we were paying hefty solicitors bills) it would have probably cost more

Once you have both got your head around the debt situation - you may want to speak to someone regarding the relationship break down - if you can't afford a solicitor maybe speak to CAB? As I just dont think this Bully should be able to try and sherk his responsibilities and then try to demand something from the house that his child lives in!!

Anyway good luck to you and your daughter at this difficult time - and just remember we are here if you need to rant or ask questions or just need a bit of general support - the most important thing you are not alone in this

x

[BBoo]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

I'd like to have a little think about this if I may.

One thing I would say is you really should not be worried about your daughter, you should be proud of her. Not many daughters are fortunate enough to have Mums with whom they can discuss these things so openly, and not many Mums are lucky enough to have wonderrful daughters who will tell them these things. You may not feel it at present, but you really are very lucky.

Let me read you situation a bit more and have a think, and then I'll post something further up.

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Thank you Flowerpower, LooLoo and BBoo.

I am going to need a bit of time to study The Full Guide to Unenforceability, Flowerpower. I've tried numerous times, but find it quite involved.

I got my daughter to read your post, LooLoo. I puts even more doubt into my plans to pay off the bulk of the mortgage with the proceeds of the sale of my home (fearing rising interest rates), (with a motorhome for a bit of own-space). We will consult a solicitor (with free 30 minutes and legal aid facility) once one can be found who can fit us in at a convenient time.

These are the letters from Lloyds concerning the loan taken out at the end of 2006 (provided they attach OK and can be read):

EDIT: I forgot to give my daughter the Black Horse (now Marlin) CCA to scan. Will do so soon.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Hiya

What you posted is just a loan summary of sorts, nothing to do with the CCA itself....

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Hiya

What you posted is just a loan summary of sorts, nothing to do with the CCA itself....

Hiya. Sorry.
Were there not 2 letters? Was one not a letter from Lloyds offering my daughter the chance to pay less than the total amount outstanding as something like "partially satisfied"? I had the impression that this constituted a default? Was this not the letter that was requested above (was it by Flowerpower?) ... that Paul might look at?

I posted the attachment before the edit about the Black Horse CCA. Can get my daughter to scan both Lloyds and Black Horse CCAs soon.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

A summary:

Hiya

Ok having spent more time here and reading through everything I really don't think UE is best for your daughter and similarly, I don't think you selling up your house is the best move either - not in the current climate however that's my initial position and just an opinion.

That said, if you were to sell up then maybe the best thing all round would be for you to let us help your daughter negotiate full and final settlements of the debt, in her sole name at least but the problem lies with the house and the fact that the ex is entitled to half - rightly or wrongly, he is therefore any future funding is madness as you're in essence funding him at the same time.

The best solution would be maybe for your daughter to sell up or at least buy out the exes interest (via solicitor of course) so the house is 100% hers (as she'll struggle to get a re mortgage no doubt as a result of the debt so it's a hard catch 22) but if she can afford to keep the same mortgage and they are happy to take him off it (with solicitor instruction etc) then I don't see why you can't then *gift* her a lump sum of say £100k to reduce the mortgage to an affordable level - but that may mean you having to pay some funds from the equity in the house to the ex.

So, in essence - the joint loans, as they are payable by whoever the loan company has on record it's unfortunate she may have to pay it all off (even the joint stuff thus clearing exes name) but here's the plan.....

1. Assume you sell-up and want to give daughter £120k you would then;
a) get three quotes from estate agents
b) use the average to establish the value (however get daughter to try and make the place look untidy to de-value it somewhat) - lets assume the equity works out at £50k from the mortgage to the average value;
2. Work out all loans and debts - assume it's £30k
3. Deduct all debts from the equity = £20k left
4. Offer the ex £10k (50% of equitable value after debt consolidation) to sign over the house to your daughter and walk away with the condition your daughter will take over all the debts (he should take this)
5. Come back to us and we'll get the £30k debt down to at least half (ideally) so your daughter will be using only £5k of her cash to repay the whole lot leaving her with no debts and the balance of your £120k would then go safely into the home for the family (daughter and grand kids)

Does this all make sense?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Hiya. Sorry.
Were there not 2 letters? Was one not a letter from Lloyds offering my daughter the chance to pay less than the total amount outstanding as something like "partially satisfied"? I had the impression that this constituted a default? Was this not the letter that was requested above (was it by Flowerpower?) ... that Paul might look at?

I posted the attachment before the edit about the Black Horse CCA. Can get my daughter to scan both Lloyds and Black Horse CCAs soon.

a lender can cancel the agreement at any time they like so long as they give 7 days notice, Brandon v Amex confirmed this so the fact they offered a discount to settle means little in the grand scheme of things.

See my last post - that's really the steps you ought to be considering......

[LooLoo]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Nid - quick question... as there is a child involved and to all intents and purposes they are common law husband/wife - is he automatically entitled to 50%? as if they had been married he would not automatically be entitled to that as a child is involved?

Sorry just trying to get my head round it all?

Also Worried Grandma - your daughter is very lucky to have you to support her like this and please do keep getting her to read posts etc so she can also get her own head round the situation.

I also know what Nid is saying about joint debts - as I got chased for all of our joint debt as they only had the former martial home address so my ex husband never got chased at all!!

x

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Thank you Niddy (hope it's OK to call you that).

Thank you so much for studying the whole situation. And a really big thank you for typing out a straightforward, comprehensive plan. Yep!! That sounds sensible. Of course, I've had all sorts of conflicting ideas going round in my mind over the past few years. I'm very grateful for you thoughts and will be mulling them over. I can see your reasoning.

EDIT: My feelings are that I want to clear much of the mortgage for my daughter, but paying off her ex's debts leaves a nasty taste. Your plan looks as if it finds a way around that ... damage limitation.