Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

[Desyduk]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Here's the letter marking the beginning of the push back with BCW (Belsen Guards)

Newcastle Upon Tyne

7 June 2012

Buchanan Clark & Wells
BCW House
24 George Square
Glasgow
G2 1EG


Dear Sirs,

T-Mobile account account: XXXXXXXX in dispute

I have been asked by XXXXXXX XXXXXXX to write to you and request copies of your client’s replies to her recorded delivery letters, disputing your client’s claim, which she addressed to your client and dated 17 November 2011 and 20 December 2011, and, which were copied to you on 22 December 2011, or, in the absence of a reply by your client, to ask you to confirm now at this stage that your client did not reply to these letters. Again we advise you that we have not received any reply from him to these letters.
If as you previously told me that...”They (your client) have advised (you) that they have previously responded to this dispute (here at least you acknowledge our dispute) and have replied to letters and emails received”... then meeting XXXXXXXX’s request to you for copies of your client’s replies should be no problem.
We await your response.

Whilst writing I must add with regard to your previous e-mail to me which you titled “Final Response”, being your response to my demand that you and your client stop bullying XXXXXXX, that your contention that... “BCW Group acts in good faith on the information and instructions issued to us by our clients. We are passed this information on the basis that the information provided is true and correct at the time of issue. We were, at no time, advised by our client of any ongoing disputes or unresolved complaint issues”...is incredible.

You were given copies of the above letters disputing your client’s claim as early as December 2011. Your client’s claim has continued to be disputed with you in all written correspondence and phone conversations since, your plea of ignorance of a dispute by attempting to hide behind your client doesn’t wash.

Your “Final Response” and position on the bullying matter has been noted. Our position remains that you and your client bullied and attempted to intimidate XXXXXXXX knowing the matter was in dispute.
The dispute remains unresolved and our complaint stands.

Yours faithfully


Desyduk
For and on behalf of
XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Dire threats and bullying follow from BC&W in an attempt to intimidate, I complained and demanded they cease bullying xxxxxxx immediately and tell them the claim has always been disputed and was never resolved. Their first and "Final Response" reply to the complaint was that they were only following orders in good faith.

So what?

So were the guards at Auschwitz and Belsen.

Refer T-mobile to OFCOM (link) or the Alternative Dispute Resolution service to which T mobile is subscribed, CISAS (link).

[Desyduk]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Handy, your views are much appreciated and will be acted on.

If records were "probably" wiped, and, a young disillusioned T-mobile call centre worker did suggest this to me, then they never 'existed' as far as I can see, unless a formally very highly payed disaffected individual who was in their organisation at the time is willing to turn and appear as OP's witness. Even if (s)he did I wouldn't taint myself with such a charachter. So it would be our word against their lack of record. So I guess that means they must try to prove the integrity of their (non) records system.

But I will take the routes you describe.

Regards

Desy

[Handyman]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

I thought that may be the case re: the roll over. It seems to me that you are doing every thing right. Now if T Mobile have wiped their records back to 09, I am sure someone will be along to confirm that this is too short a period? I thought that accounts and data had to be held for a minimum of 5 years, ( I keep mine for at least 7, just in case).

Either way if it comes down to a straight argument about who said what and when I would say that the stronger argument is on your side. I wonder what Paul our friendly solicitor would make of this? For in my opinion if it went to County Court they would need to produce evidence that your youngster never cancelled the contract.

I'm sure that if I am wrong in this I will soon be corrected.

I recently had some success with claiming back an early termination fee with Talk Talk, their CEO got my email at home on a Sunday Morning. By Wednesday £92.00 was back in my bank.

It took 3 attempts to get the right email address, but that is why I suggest you contact the MD of TM UK.

It might also be worth rattling the cage of Phones 4U as their sales staff in a way caused this problem. I would explain the situation and ask them what they suggest you do, just after you intimate you are going to make a major case of this and it could be very adverse publicity for all concerned.

Regards, Handy

[Desyduk]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Handy, you have my absolute respect for having been a combat engineer, you know I saw those young RE’s in training all those years ago and they were so steady and purposeful, I now feel I’m in good hands. As for me having been an OP it was the most exotic way to travel in those days and the amount of duty free you could bring in under those para smocks and Irving Mk 11 chutes from Germany was a bonus.


Back to T-mobile, I made the point to them early on in the dispute that there had been no activity on the account for nearly 3 years, you guessed it, the smell of cash outweighed any principle of fairness in their nostrils and they didn’t budge, ever.
There was no reminder letter or written statements, at some point before cancellation they said they changed to on-line accounts, our young XXXXXXXX did neither knew nor ever accessed an on-line account, why would she, as far as she was concerned the service had been cancelled and as far as she was concerned she hadn’t been told otherwise in any form.



I believe that from the end of last year, roll-over contracts are not permitted any longer. The customer must be informed by the service provider that the agreement period is coming to an end. At the time of this matter that wasn’t the case, the recent change may raise sympathy but it wasn’t illegal to roll it over then without any intervention by the service provider, mutual silence was then sufficient.


The phone call to T-mobile on 7/1 was enough, they have simply wiped their records since, hey presto an extra £22.4 million, great accountants trick, and I hate those buggers!


Keep talking to me Handy!


Respect from Desyduk

[Handyman]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Hi, Desy. OP as Phil says it means Original Poster, but in your case it could be Old Para

For the record, 11 years Combat Engineer RE and 6 years Flt Lt RAF (all reserve service) but I hope you won't hold my time in the Crabs against me.

Looks like your going down the right route. If you are getting problems from BCW there are plenty of suitable templates available to get them off your youngsters back. There are plenty of folks that will point you in the right direction.

I have been thinking about your problem, If it were me one thing I would argue and the SAR should help back this up. OK so there was 4 X £35 to pay to complete the contract, but after that there would have been no activity on the account. No calls made or texts sent and so on up to the point of the last payment being made by the bank.

I would strongly argue the point that this lack of activity proves that to the best of your understanding the account had terminated at it's expiry date.

I would also want to know when and if the reminder letter was sent out informing your girl that the contract had reached it's due date and was about to roll over.

There's probably something about it in the small print. But there has been much in the news lately about roll over contracts.

Recently I had to inform my insurance company I would not be renewing with them this year, I had the reminder 3 weeks before the renewal date. The phone call to T Mobile @ 7/1/09 should have been enough.

Hope you find some of this of help.

Regards Handy

Still can't understand why someone would want to jump out of a perfectly serviceable Aircraft

[Desyduk]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

A poster! Now I'm two dimensional, lol, thank you for enlightening me Philnicandamy

[philnicandamy]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

By the way what’s an OP Handy? If you’re calling me an Old Person there could be trouble....

not at all....OP means Original Poster

on a serious note though good luck with it all your in safe hands

[Desyduk]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Handy you are right! Thank you for clarifying my thinking. Tell me if I’m wrong but it seems to need a three part approach and I feel that in the meantime the SAR to BCW is a sideshow but it’s buying me a bit of time to assemble an end game strategy with the help and support of you folks (good or bad outcome(s) are less important here for me, although our daughter XXXXXXXX can ill afford to pay, than the principles of unpicking this unholy alliance of indecent puppets)


First: Phones 4 U, both T-mobile and Vodafone contracts, whose service agreements overlapped by 4 months were offered by them in the full knowledge of this overlap with a minimum cost to our daughter XXXXXXXX of £140 (£35x4months). As I understand it the contracts were formed with them but the services were provided under the T&C’s of the mobile phone companies. How to approach this is my question?


Second: T-mobile, after I submit and obtain the SAR results the essential issue still remains that it is our joint word, under oath if necessary, that we cancelled the service against their lack of a record that it was cancelled, is their precedent? Albeit that the SAR may produce a rich vein or two.


Third: BCW, my youngster has been bullied and they were warned by me twice after I informed them of XXXXXXXX’s learning difficulty and that their client’s claim had never not been in dispute. I have informed them, very gently, that I will pursue this matter separately on another occasion in the light of their first and final response to my complaints. I believe sufficient has been said by them as they have qualified their drivel as “Final Response”, and so when the first two parts of the strategy come together I can approach their regulatory body with the evidence. Any views?


I was young once and back in the day, I was a paratrooper for four years and we had a saying in my battalion which I fondly called “the old and the bold”, I was bold then, and it was “tread ye softly catch ye monkey”. My nature in the face of injustice and unfairness is patience then aggression. As the Archbishop of Canterbury once said: “Talk softly and carry a big stick”....he did say it no matter what “Cleverclogs” might tell you about Roosevelt.... and I instinctively take his approach.


Thanks for your help and support.


By the way what’s an OP Handy? If you’re calling me an Old Person there could be trouble....

[Handyman]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Wow what a story. Sounds to me as if the OP has done everything right. Phones 4U want a blast for OK they did a promotional trade in on the first phone but how can they part ex and then expect you to continue paying for a contract you can't use.

T Mobile doesn't have the best customer service record either.
I doubt that the SAR will be complete of will give much useful information, having said that the OP may just be lucky.

It may be worth Desyduk sending a copy of her post to the CEO of T Mobile, Phillip Humm Informing him that after the SAR is recieved she will be taking the matter up with Watchdog, the Local Paper, OFFCOM and who ever else she thinks may be able to help.

I'm sure someone on here will be able to find the right email address for Mr Humm (bright sounding name )

EDIT Forget the above try Richard Moat T Mobiles UK MD email Richard Moat – MDTMOB@t-mobile.co.uk

Regards, Handy

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Phones4U/T-Mobile/BCW Hell

Copied & pasted by me via email sent from OP.

[Desyduk]

On 26/10/2007 my partner's daughter XXXXXXX, at age 19 and lovely, thoughtful and kind yet stubborn, independent-minded and severely dyslexic, took out a an 18 month mobile phone service agreement £35 per month with T-mobile, plus itemised billing, at the Phones 4 U store in Newcastle Eldon Square.



On 27/12/2008, at the same store, she accepted a promotional offer and took out a new 18 month service agreement £35 per month with Vodafone. Phones 4 U traded in her T-mobile phone and gave her a new Vodafone phone and told her to ring T-mobile and cancel the service as she was now with Vodafone.


She didn't use T-mobile's service from this point on; she couldn't as Phones 4 U had taken the T-mobile phone off her, lots of love!


Phones 4 U, with whom she took out both contracts, couldn't have explained the implications to XXXXXXXX that she would have to pay for two phone services for the next 4 months until the 18 month anniversary would trigger termination of the T-mobile account at the earliest after she cancelled it. If they had I don't believe she would have done that deal then.



Commission payments to employees on low basic salary eh! (peanuts and monkeys)


On or about 7/01/09 when she came in from work I reminded her to cancel T-mobile and in my presence she rang them, putting them on the loudspeaker so I could hear she was doing it right, and she cancelled their service to which the T-mobile operator said would be effective from 26/04/2009. She was told, and, she understood from customer services that she would have to continue payments by direct debit for the service up to that date.


Great, sorted! Or was it?


Nearly 2 years later XXXXXXXX was made redundant and had to reduce her outgoings, we helped her as her ability to organise is terrible, and, to our surprise, T-mobile and Vodafone were both taking money from her bank account!


On 02/10/2011 we rang T-mobile, they said she never cancelled. Over the next 3 months her mum and me complained to T-mobile by phone and correspondence, I wrote every email and letter for her, they didn't budge, only to send a final written bill after we cancelled the direct debit.



We were frustrated, they still wouldn't budge and they often hung up on us.


In December 2011 Victoria at my request asked her bank to get her money back from 26/04/09 onwards, and they did.
Following this T-mobile claimed she owed them £1092.43, which we have disputed in every piece of correspondence to date.
They offered to write off the last bill for £43.83 if we settled the claim in full, we declined.


T-mobile then passed it to Buchanan Clark & Wells in December 2011 and we told them at length that T-mobiles claim is in dispute and they then referred it back to T-mobile.


T-mobile cynically cleared XXXXXXXX's account sending out a £0 statement and then re-instated their claim the day after with a £1092.43 statement, passing it back to BC&W claiming the dispute is resolved.



Dire threats and bullying follow from BC&W in an attempt to intimidate, I complained and demanded they cease bullying XXXXXXXX immediately and told them the claim has always been disputed and was never resolved. Their first and "Final Response" reply to the complaint was that they were only following orders in good faith. We will deal later with our complaint on bullying separately.


They referred back again to T-mobile who told them to get on with it as we have been told why XXXXXXXX owes them money on many occasions. And so they did, first by saying they would home visit, we ignored the letter. Then by offering to reduce the claim to £819.32 if we settle immediately, we ignored this letter too.


We threw our own curve ball back at BC&W and wrote asking them for the replies to our 2 recorded delivery letters from 2011 disputing the claim. They replied last week, pleading "Data Processor" status to their Client's "Data Controller" role and they noted that we remained dissatisfied but that we must refer to their client for data during which they would cease collection activity for the next 21 days.


I then found your lovely web-site and read up on SAR's. BCW received my SAR on behalf of Victoria this morning in their own capacity as a Data controller.


The next move I intend will be to send T-mobile a SAR too, but my question is what can I do when I have their data? XXXXXXXX did cancel the service but T-mobile claim to have no record, one of their customer service operators told me in October 2011 that their records were probably wiped.



We genuinely believe T-mobile robbed XXXXXXXX's bank account following cancellation but we rescued the money. What do you think?


Great site thanks for your help.


Desyduk