Lowell (Orange) v LifeOfRyan **SET ASIDE**

[LifeOfRyan]

Hello all,

I was hoping I could get some advice here on what to do next as,

Today I have received a county court claim from Lowell. It states 'The claimants claim is for the sum of £410.00 being monies due from the defendant under a non-regulated (non-regulated? What about Ofcom?) Communications agreement between the defendant and orange, it goes on to basically say the defendant failed to maintain the contractual payment and that the claim included statutory interest pursuant ti section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8.00% per annum.

The reason being that I failed to maintain payment was because Orange hiked the price of my contact more than once, therefore I ceased use of the SIM and stopped paying for it on the basis that they breached the contract. You've probably heard about orange's tactics and the fairly recent Ofcom ruling (see link if not) http://blogs.which.co.uk/technology/...d-means-fixed/
http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/2013/0...t-price-rises/

Here in the terms it clearly says you may terminate if orange increase charges, and Ofcom say I should be able to exit without penalty.

terminating your Contract because Orange has changed its terms
4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase
in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment. In such
cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and
within one month of us telling you about the changes). However this option does not apply if:
4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase
in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly
Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; or
4.3.2 the variations we have made have been imposed on us as a direct result of new legislation,
statutory instrument, governmentregulation or licence; or
4.3.3 the variation relates solely to an Orange Additional Service, in which case you may cancel
that Orange Additional Service in accordance with Condition 15.1.

I should add that the contract was taken out before 1st November 2012 which was when from what I have read they changed there terms and conditions. Here is a link to the terms which I think should of applied to me at the time, http://www.tomforth.co.uk/orange/PAY...s-20110215.pdf


Any replies are very much appreciated and thank you for taking the time to read my post


Ryan

[SXGuy]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

Did you check these points before cancelling?

However this option does not apply if:
4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase
in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly
Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; or
4.3.2 the variations we have made have been imposed on us as a direct result of new legislation,
statutory instrument, governmentregulation or licence;

[LifeOfRyan]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

SXGuy, to be honest I wouldn't even know where to start. But I fail to see why I should agree to a price hike when I signed to pay a set price not a penny more.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

Let's forget whether it's fair or not, I don't think Orange have the legal right to do this. Let's look at Orange's legal argument,
Orange are justifying refusing cancellations based on two clauses within their Ts&Cs, 4.3 and 15.1. Clause 15.1 is not important to this, it just refers back to 4.3. Clause 4.3 is the important one so let's look at it,
" 4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us telling you about the changes). However this option does not apply if:
4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; "
According to Clause 4.3, you can cancel your contract without penalty if you don't agree with an increase in your agreed tariff since this is clearly to your detriment. Orange say that clause 4.3.1 lets them raise their tariffs by up to RPI inflation without allowing customers to cancel and that's what they're doing. But there's a problem here. The Central Statistical Office was closed in 1996 and they haven't produced a Monthly Digest of Statistics since then. Yes, The Office for National Statistics took over the role of that office and produces similar statistics but Orange's Ts&Cs don't say "or similar" or "by the successor" in reference to the RPI figures in this clause 4.3.1. Furthermore the Ts&Cs were written well after the Central Statistical Office ceased to exist so it's not a valid defence for Orange to say that they just wrote their Ts&Cs with respect to the legal bodies that existed at the time. Even more damningly, Orange's Ts&Cs do not contain the word "inflation", "RPI" or "Retail Prices Index" anywhere.

http://www.tomforth.co.uk/orange/

[oscar]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

I know O2 have increased mine due to RPI or CPI - basically the cost of living increase.

I can ee your point with regards to the hikes (how much were they incidentally?), but as SX as pointed out, their T&Cs allow for such rises.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

http://blogs.which.co.uk/technology/...d-means-fixed/

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

Not anymore Oscar OFCOM has ruled against this and why the contract terms have changed FIXED is FIXED

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

My son was under a contract pre 2012 that was deemed as unfair and thus changed

[LifeOfRyan]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

According to Clause 4.3, you can cancel your contract without penalty if you don't agree with an increase in your agreed tariff since this is clearly to your detriment. Orange say that clause 4.3.1 lets them raise their tariffs by up to RPI inflation without allowing customers to cancel and that's what they're doing. But there's a problem here. The Central Statistical Office was closed in 1996 and they haven't produced a Monthly Digest of Statistics since then. Yes, The Office for National Statistics took over the role of that office and produces similar statistics but Orange's Ts&Cs don't say "or similar" or "by the successor" in reference to the RPI figures in this clause 4.3.1. Furthermore the Ts&Cs were written well after the Central Statistical Office ceased to exist so it's not a valid defence for Orange to say that they just wrote their Ts&Cs with respect to the legal bodies that existed at the time.

[LifeOfRyan]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

It was a 4.34% increase

[SXGuy]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

The reason why i asked if you check those points first before cancelling was quite a simple one. Had you, and you had obided by them, that would be a defence.

Your argument for their terms stating a body that no long exists, may well be de minis, Andrew will need to confirm this.

I'm just trying to understand what you actually did prior to the cessation of payment. And whether it complied with their t's and c's. Not just an argument after the fact, but what happend before this.

What do you want to happen with this? dismissle of the claim? Just so we know.

[LifeOfRyan]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

The reason why i asked if you check those points first before cancelling was quite a simple one. Had you, and you had obided by them, that would be a defence.

Your argument for their terms stating a body that no long exists, may well be de minis, Andrew will need to confirm this.

I'm just trying to understand what you actually did prior to the cessation of payment. And whether it complied with their t's and c's. Not just an argument after the fact, but what happend before this.

What do you want to happen with this? dismissle of the claim? Just so we know.

Yes I would like the claim to be dismissed, I really don't have the kind of money which they are after.

Before I received the noticed of increased prices I paid my phone bill regularly and always on time, not via there preferred direct debit method but on-line via card payment, which I was penalised for as there were added charges for not paying via direct debit. When I was notified i stopped using the SIM right away and I sent a letter requesting to cancel, although I received no reply to this, but I got a termination of contract in the post also requesting cancellation fees, which I ignored and did not pay on the grounds of clause 4.3 stating that I can terminate if they vary terms, resulting in an excessive increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract. Since then over the last year or so the debt has been passed from pillar to post to various collection companies up until this happening.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

Well I'm not sure how it's got this far because anyone can increase their rates - same as credit cards, however the key thing here is that in both cases if you refuse such an increase then you can cancel only if you notify the company - was a formal refusal of increase followed by cancellation letter sent?

If yes, you're covered.

if no, you're buggered.

you cannot rely on their own terms against them but then ignore the parts that rely upon you, the customer so unless you formally rejected the proposed increment then you really are stuck and I'd suggest you try and settle this ASAP.

was a LBA issued, out of interest?

Additionally it is guidance only, not law. Secondly, it clearly states in the link Pompey posted:

‘We’re making it clear that any increase to the monthly subscription price should trigger a consumer’s right to leave their contract – without penalty.’

This guidance is the best possible result for consumers and comes into effect three months from today. Although this ruling doesn’t apply to any non-price changes to contracts, it would come into effect if your provider reduced the amount of minutes, texts or data included in your contract.

so when was the increase as this only came into force (ie the guidance) in January and it is NOT retrospective..

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

The first comment spells this out for the junk it really is.... In layman, you can opt out but then what? You must pay off the remainder of the contract still as well as find a new provider mid term, assuming you have the cash to buy the contract and any handset out?

sorry guys but this isn't going to end well. Why didn't you tell me Pompey - before it was too late? We chat on FB daily mate - lol

Geoff Turner


This isn’t really the victory claimed – when I signed the petition, it was for “fixed means fixed”, meaning the contract price should remain unchanged for the duration of the contract. This Ofcom compromise is really of little use because all the phone companies increase their charges (and are still free to do so) and I can leave my contract but to go where?


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Posted 25/10/2013 at 5:30 pm
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[LifeOfRyan]

Re: Court Claim from Lowell - Orange Contract

The first comment spells this out for the junk it really is.... In layman, you can opt out but then what? You must pay off the remainder of the contract still as well as find a new provider mid term, assuming you have the cash to buy the contract and any handset out?

sorry guys but this isn't going to end well. Why didn't you tell me Pompey - before it was too late? We chat on FB daily mate - lol

Ok im buggered then. Im shitting it now, do you think Lowell would accept a payment plan this late on? And still dismiss the claim? I don't know what else to do....