Recalculation of PPI already paid

[cymruambyth]

Hi everyone, there has been lots in the press about underpayment of PPI. Are companies supposed to contact you or vice versa? How far does this go back as I'm sure LLoyds underpaid me but I was just grateful to receive anything!

[ken100464]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Cym

I think the banks are supposed to contact us.

Is this a loan or a CC?. If a CC then Bill K has a rather good spreadsheet if you have all the PPI and balances and payments (statements or transaction logs). With this you can check if they have done you over again.

Also the dates are very important. This isnt about all claims just a certain number over 2012/2013 I think. If outside these dates the banks wont reopen and I think FOS will allow them to claim the consumer is outwith 6 months.

However Bill is your man on this.

[cymruambyth]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Thanks ken. I had a few 2013/14 credit cards, store cards etc. The big one was before then

[Bill-K]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Iechyd da, Cymru - and sorry for not responding to your thread any sooner. As Ken says, the lenders are supposed to contact us, but have been notoriously reluctant to do so. Back in 2010 when the PPI rules were re-drafted, the lenders were told by the FSA (now FCA) to be 'pro-active,' and search their own records for mis-sold PPI - but there has been very little evidence of this, as far as I know. However, since the recent pronouncements by the FCA's Martin Wheatley, it appears that they are now finally (and presumably grudgingly !!!) making an effort. The apparently systematic mis-calculations are generally just over the past 2 years (as Ken also says) - but I can tell you that general mis-calculation has been rife from the outset.

If you still have the details of your Lloyds (and any other) PPI refunds, then it may be possible to check the figures - but this will usually need you to have a good record of your PPI payments, along with account balances and interest charges. For fixed-amount loans, you might be able to simply use the figures from your original loan agreement, though.

If the Lloyds account was opened before 14/01/05, then you may find they will try and tell you that the current rules don't apply. I think that may be to your advantage, though - because the current (PS10/12) rules restrict the amount of 8% interest that can be claimed on credit card PPI - and you can usually claim a higher amount of this interest under the old rules.

But this really all depends on what data you actually have, and you may need to send DSAR's to all the lenders. At £10 a pop, you may want to try and check if you had PPI on the more recent CC accounts. Thanks to Ken for giving my spreadies a wee 'plug' !!! :-

Credit Cards:-

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...Redress-Offers

Fixed Loans:-

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...Redress-Offers

[cymruambyth]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Thank you Bill for the comprehensive reply. I will look over the weekend for all my paperwork. The Lloyds account was a fixed term loan that I unfortunately defaulted on ( a very long story) but I do have a considerable amount of paperwork, including the details of the payment.

Unfortunately my other PPI cases that have been successful have been on closed accounts with very limited information. About 15 years ago my OH encouraged me to tidy all the paperwork that I was accumulating which meant that I went from everything to just the previous financial year. If only.........

[Bill-K]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

I know, I know, Cymru. Over recent years, we have all been taught to shred our paperwork for security reasons. But this has meant we destroyed our own records of all this stuff.

If you have the most recent copies of statements regarding the more recent CC accounts, then you can at least check if PPI was being charged on them. That would then show you if a DSAR was worth sending. They usually only send data going back 6 years, but our Welsh colleague Di30 has managed to go back well before this, and got some great results, bless her.

As regards that Lloyds fixed-amount loan - we may be able to get some figures sorted if you have a copy of the original agreement - or have a record of the original figures. My mate Turboman did an excellent job with the spreadsheet for that. We may even be able to 'reverse-engineer' from whatever figures you have. Estimated figures are acceptable if we can show them to be based upon fact at some point.

As regards defaulting on a loan - that's one of the main reasons why we each find ourselves here helping each other, innit ? I've been through that particular mill myself - and it means that we don't judge people who have been through the same grinding-down process.

[cymruambyth]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Unfortunately I have have a problem connecting to the Internet on my laptop and my iPad won't let me add figures to your spreadsheet (it could be used incompetence).

Insurance premium £5105.32, monthly payments of £104.52, monthly interest of .7%, APR 8.7%.
Loan taken out on April 2002. Last full payment May 2003. Interest charged until July 2004.

Following a decision by FOS a cheque for £6203.21 was paid into my bank account on 11 January 2011.

According to my calculations I was underpaid, however I was grateful to receive any money! If I was underpaid (my calculations made it anywhere between £2200 and £3500, I am more than prepared to try and fight Lloyds as their behaviour helped to sink us financially.

thank you

[Bill-K]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

I would need more details to come up with anything more accurate, but this is what I have put together using the info you posted. It is based on a lot of estimates & assumptions - so it could be very wide of the mark - and I apologise if some of my assumptions are wrongly made:-

PPI on fixed loans varies, but 25% of the Cash Advance is not unusual, so I have estimated a Cash Advance of £20,000, going by the PPI premium of £5,105.32 which you quoted.
If the last scheduled payment made was on 22/05/03, then I have assumed that 13 repayments of £104.52 were made in total up to this date.
Assuming that no further scheduled repayments were made after this, then I have next assumed that the loan was settled when the interest ceased to be charged on 23/07/04.
Again, a rough estimate, but it appears that interest was being charged at 0.7% each month for the 91 months between 22/05/03 & 23/07/04.
Very roughly, this could have brought the balance owing up to around £26,000 by 23/07/04 - so the estimated loan settlement I have is £26,000.
Approx. 20% of this settlement is directly attributable to the PPI (according to my estimate) - which is £5,200.
Adding the PPI paid until 22/05/03 brings this to approx. £5,500.
Adding 8% simple interest to this brings it to approx. £8,483 as at 11/01/11.
Re-calculating the 8% interest to today's date (28/09/14) increases the total claim quantum to approx. £10,136.

So it is possible that your redress was £4,000 short. But I must repeat that this is purely an estimate based on the figures I have.

For something more accurate, I would need to know as much as possible of the following from the Loan Agreement:

The Cash Advance part of the loan;
Any previous Loan settlement or consolidation brought forward into the loan from a previous one;
Any PPI brought forward into the loan from a previous one;
The total loan period in months;
The date of the 1st repayment;
The actual number of repayments made - and any variations from the scheduled payment dates & amounts;
The loan settlement amount & date;
The manner in which it was settled (ie., consolidation/DCA/cash settlement, etc.)

This is the info that the spreadsheet needs, and I'll happily put it in for you if you can post it - or by all means PM me with it, as it doesn't really need to be posted openly.

[cymruambyth]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Bill, thank you for all your help, I have sent the information by PM.

[Bill-K]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Thanks for the extra figures, Cymru - I'm afraid they seem to put my original estimate way off the mark, though.
You appear to have paid a total of £17,750.67 towards the loan, which included £3,040.33 of PPI.
Adding 8% interest of £1,700.28 to this brings the total PPI claim quantum to £4,740.61 as at 11/01/11.
If the settlement of £6,203.21 was entirely for the PPI on this loan, then it appears to have been a very favourable one.

Perhaps you took out another loan around 22/07/04, and used this to pay off the arrears accrued to that date, which would have been around £8,800 or so.
Alternatively, Lloyds may have passed the arrears over to their collections dept, as you appear to have made a reduced monthly repayment arrangement around then. In that case, the total claim quantum would have been much lower - around £2,500.

I suspect, though, that you may also have had PPI on a credit card issued at the same time as the loan - as this is something that Lloyds used to do. So the £6,203.21 settlement may well have included CC PPI, and unless we know how much that was, we can't work out how much of it was for the loan PPI.

I hope this has helped.

[Bill-K]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Cymru says that there was no consolidation or other loan taken out, so 2 large inpayments showing in the records were probably the removal of accrued arrears to a separate account/department and Cymru's account was credited with these arrears for accounting purposes. I have now re-calculated, and the result I now get is a total claim quantum of £2,469.40 as at 11/01/11. This is now less than half of the £6203.21 paid by Lloyds, but Cymru confirms that this PPI was entirely connected to the loan account. As this is such a huge difference, and also I believe Cymru is unable to use my spready - I will endeavour to explain my calculations so that they can be checked with a calculator.

We have a Cash Advance of £24,700 with a further PPI premium loaned of £5,105.32, making a total loan of £29,805.32.
If we apply the fraction: "PPI loan / Total loan" - we have the fraction: 5105.32 / 29805.32. This is the fraction of the Total loan that is the PPI.
We need to express this as a percentage, and to do this we must divide 5105.32 by 29805.32, and this comes to 0.171288883...
We multiply this by 100 to find the percentage, and this is referred to as the 'PPI Apportionment Ratio.'

So, to check our calculation - we need to calculate what 17.1289% of the Total loan of £29,805.32 is - and this comes to £5,105.32, which is indeed the PPI Premium loan amount.
It now follows that - of each and every repayment made - 17.1289% is PPI, and we can check this from Cymru's agreement figures:-
The original monthly Total loan repayment was £610.21. 17.1289% of this is £104.52 - which is the PPI part of the monthly repayment shown in the agreement.

From the figures Cymru sent me, I have calculated that a total of £8,980.04 in repayments were made to the account.
17.1289% of this is £1,538.18 - and this is the Total of PPI Premiums to be refunded.

The next part is more difficult, because it really does need a spreadsheet to calculate the 8% simple interest on each of the PPI Premium payments made, because the calculation has to be done separately for each repayment. However, I'll explain how to do it on a calculator, and the calculation method itself can be checked.
Compensatory interest is claimed at 8% simple interest per annum. This works out at 8/365% per day, which is approx. 0.022% per day, and is claimed on each PPI payment separately up until the date of claim settlement.
Taking the first PPI Premium repayment on 22/05/02 of £104.52, the spready calculates that the number of days elapsed since then until the settlement date (10/01/11) is 3,156.
We therefore have to calculate what 0.022% of £104.52 is first of all - and that is £0.0229944...
Next, we multiply this by the elapsed days, which is 0.0229944 x 3156 - which is £72.57.
This calculation is applied to each repayment separately, as the number of days elapsed decreases with time, and the amount repaid also varies.

The spready calculates the total of 8% interest as £931.39 - but using a calculator, this would be higher because the figures shown here have been rounded up. The spready calculates to quite a large number of decimal places, so is usually more accurate.

Anyways - that's how I have calculated the PPI Redress, so unless there is something very amiss with the dates & figures I have been working with, it looks like the original Redress offer is even better than my previous calculation !!!

[cymruambyth]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Thank you for your time, effort and explanation. I will sit down tomorrow when I am more alert to try and understand it all!

I just thought you added interest to the original PPI loan as this is still a debt against me, if you understand what I mean!!!

[Bill-K]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

It depends how much of a 'maths' person you are, Cymru. Don't worry if it's a headache for you - I just needed to explain my methods, because there seemed to be so much of a discrepancy.

The calculation of how much PPI you actually paid automatically includes any account interest that was charged, as it is included in the monthly repayments as set out by the lender. I think my old mate Turboman explained this in his analytical threads - but it can be difficult to grasp if you're not into the maths side of it all.

So - we reclaim the money we actually paid - but of course, we cannot reclaim any money that we didn't pay. We can claim 8% simple interest on the money we actually paid - but of course, we cannot reclaim it on any money that we didn't actually pay. If Lloyds were continuing to add their own interest to the account whilst you were struggling - then that is one matter. But if you never actually repaid that interest, then you cannot reclaim it from them.

As an example, if the debt eventually became time-barred via the Limitation Act, then you would not be able to reclaim what you hadn't paid. If Lloyds had been charging interest on the account, and this had increased the debt to millions - then you cannot reclaim that interest unless you had actually paid it. Writing off the debt as UE/time-barred is their loss, and not yours. I do believe that they get a nice tax allowance on that - so us plebs still get to pay for it.

[cymruambyth]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Thanks Bill, I suppose in my greed and optimism I had never really thought it all through! As for the maths it was quite interesting to see how the formula worked and will no doubt give me hours of fun with a calculator, not that I doubt you but just seeing the process work.
Cy

[cymruambyth]

Re: Recalculation of PPI already paid

Thinking all this through on a dog walk, this refund was only paid after a fight and the FOS. The debt had been moved to their debt department and may therefore have been shown as cleared. I think that they may have tried being clever and repaid the whole PPI and given a pathetic amount of interest on this. It's a good job that I was grateful for the money and didn't question it at the time or they may have discovered their errors!