Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

[LATE]

Excuse me if I'm posting in the wrong section but I really don't know where to start

Basically, my 18 year old son had his Halifax Visa Debit card stolen and, in the four and a half hours between last seeing it and realising it was missing, someone managed to get a Wonga loan paid onto it (£328) and then withdraw £320! He didn't have his PIN with the card but he figures that as he has an unusual name (spelling at least) they managed to find him on Facebook etc and work out enough details to impersonate him. He phoned Halifax as soon as he knew the card was gone and they cancelled it but then made him phone Wonga. Wonga told him to phone Action Fraud, which he did. Both the Halifax and Wonga are not being helpful and the Action Fraud people say the Halifax should be sorting it. Wonga are now saying my son (who doesn't earn any money at all) is liable for the loan!

I have dealt with my own financial issues and am not afraid to ask the questions or contact people to get this sorted but really don't know where to start as this is so different to the situation I was in. Any advice or tips would be gratefully received,

Thanks

LATE

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Hi

Ok, first thing to start off with is that Wonga are wrong in insisting that your son is liable for repayment of the loan if he can prove that his details have been used fraudulently. If they persist in this then I suggest you take this to the FCA and then the press.

The only thing I have reservation about is that you state your sons card was stolen, managed to get a loan paid into the account, and then withdrew the money in just under 4 hours. This suggests that the person who committed the fraud either:

1) Knew the pin number, but your son states that this was not kept with the card, or
2) Withdrew the money over the counter at a branch of the Halifax meaning that they had some form of identification

The Halifax at the very least should be able to tell you which mechanism was used to withdraw the money. Action Fraud are correct that its the Halifax who should be doing more here to resolve the situation, but with the limited information supplied so far it is a little suspicious.

I'm not suggesting your son in complicit in this, but has he perhaps been a little foolish and maybe given information like his PIN to a (ex) girlfriend, or anyone else for that matter?

The mechanism that the money was withdrawn is important here as it will enable you to prove that he has been a fraud victim.

Best
SnV

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Thanks for the message Saltandvinegar.

My son has never given his PIN to anyone however, naively, had it as a remember-able date so expect they worked it out easily from his Facebook details (it was something to do with his DOB). He also does have an unusual spelling of his first and last name (shown on the card) so would make him more easy to find 'on-line'.

My son has never really had any money in there, usually the odd £10 I've transferred in for him to use for college or similar. As an aside, from the loan being paid in until the money was withdrawn was about an hour according to his on-line bank record.

For him, it was a big wake up - he hadn't realised that people could or would do this. For me, I think it must have been done by someone who knew exactly what they were doing - it was done quickly and for a relatively small un-rounded amount (who borrows £328?). I have had no dealings with Wonga but have with other loan companies in the past and proof of earnings of some form was always needed - how could they possibly lend money to someone with no earnings, what was said by whoever took out the loan to persuade Wonga the person pretending to be my son was a suitable candidate for lending money to?

Interestingly, the Action Fraud lady my son spoke to today got quite annoyed at how he was being treated and said it was "identity theft".

Thanks again.

[SXGuy]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Pay Day Loans, i.e Wonga, lend money to anyone, they don't do any form of credit checks, PDL's are not like bank loans. They are specifically for people who cant get loans elsewhere, hence why it was approved so easily.

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Thanks for that - explains a lot. They must lose a lot of money though by doing it this way.

In a way I'm glad that they weren't really around when I had my debt problems, as I could have got myself in an even bigger mess, but can see how they can get folks into problems. The letter my son received today says that the loan of £328 needs to be repaid on the 24 April, less than a month after it was paid out, at a charge of £55.52 making it £383.52 to repay!!

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

My son has never given his PIN to anyone however, naively, had it as a remember-able date so expect they worked it out easily from his Facebook details (it was something to do with his DOB). He also does have an unusual spelling of his first and last name (shown on the card) so would make him more easy to find 'on-line'.

As an aside, from the loan being paid in until the money was withdrawn was about an hour according to his on-line bank record.

So I'm assuming then that the cash was withdrawn via a cashpoint?

Does your son have intimate personal information available to everyone on his Facebook page? Did he have no privacy settings set up at all?

The way these scams usually work is that the fraudsters set up a bank account they have control over using false or stolen documents they have for someone, then they make application with dozens of PDL companies, withdraw the money with a 'legitimate' bank card leaving the real person high and dry.

Another favourite method is to intercept a persons bank card and pin number (so inside job at the Post Office), the victim does not know at this stage the card has been stolen, and the fraudsters then apply for loans and empty the bank account.

Was all the other information used in the fraudulent application legitimate? In other words:

Full Name
d.o.b
address and postcode
telephone numbers
email address
employment details
bank account details (which they could not have got from the card) and Wonga will not accept applications with just a bank card (although some PDL companies do)

Now maybe, just maybe, someone could get all of the information above from Facebook and make the application in less than 2 hours, allowing a further one hour for the funds to be deposited (Wonga usually take longer for 1st applications), allowing an additional hour to withdraw the money. But how did they get your sons bank account details on the basis of just the stolen bank card? Was anything else stolen at the same time?

If the information above was not correct in the fraudulent application then Wonga don't have a leg to stand on either.

For him, it was a big wake up - he hadn't realised that people could or would do this. For me, I think it must have been done by someone who knew exactly what they were doing - it was done quickly and for a relatively small un-rounded amount (who borrows £328?).

Wonga typically set what someone can borrow in their first application so while its a small amount multiply that by 10 and you get a nice monthly income thanks very much.

I have had no dealings with Wonga but have with other loan companies in the past and proof of earnings of some form was always needed - how could they possibly lend money to someone with no earnings, what was said by whoever took out the loan to persuade Wonga the person pretending to be my son was a suitable candidate for lending money to?

Wonga lend money to people on benefits, and have even been known to lend money to people under the age of 18 (which is unlawful), so it is no surprise.

I think the big thing for you to do here is push back very hard on the Halifax. They have allowed the account to be used fraudulently, though I would be careful of mentioning Facebook if your son has been careless in applying privacy settings as Halifax may try to put responsibility onto him if that is the case.

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Thanks for that - explains a lot. They must lose a lot of money though by doing it this way.

In a way I'm glad that they weren't really around when I had my debt problems, as I could have got myself in an even bigger mess, but can see how they can get folks into problems. The letter my son received today says that the loan of £328 needs to be repaid on the 24 April, less than a month after it was paid out, at a charge of £55.52 making it £383.52 to repay!!

So this partly answers my question in that legitimate information was used during the application. Did your son publish his full postal address on Facebook? If not then are you ex directory, or is your address searchable on the internet associated with your name?

What else was stolen along with the debit card?

[SXGuy]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Thanks for that - explains a lot. They must lose a lot of money though by doing it this way.

In a way I'm glad that they weren't really around when I had my debt problems, as I could have got myself in an even bigger mess, but can see how they can get folks into problems. The letter my son received today says that the loan of £328 needs to be repaid on the 24 April, less than a month after it was paid out, at a charge of £55.52 making it £383.52 to repay!!

And that's just the best case scenario, people take out loans with these guys for a couple hundred, fail to pay it back and before you know it, its been rolled over so many times they owe thousands.

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Firstly, thanks SnV for taking the time to answer my concerns. My son is guilty of being naive about what some people can do but having seen me go through BR due to separation and job loss he's aware of the implications of most things financial. I have tried to answer some of your questions below as I felt this was the easiest way - I've put them in blue to make them stand out. Thanks again.

So I'm assuming then that the cash was withdrawn via a cashpoint? As far as we can tell from his on-line statement, even down to where it was withdrawn

Does your son have intimate personal information available to everyone on his Facebook page? Did he have no privacy settings set up at all? He does have privacy settings and intimate private details are not available (though possibly his date of birth is available) nothing else is on there.

The way these scams usually work is that the fraudsters set up a bank account they have control over using false or stolen documents they have for someone, then they make application with dozens of PDL companies, withdraw the money with a 'legitimate' bank card leaving the real person high and dry.

Another favourite method is to intercept a persons bank card and pin number (so inside job at the Post Office), the victim does not know at this stage the card has been stolen, and the fraudsters then apply for loans and empty the bank account. The only place my son used his card that day was in a local shop to get money out to put on a pre-payment Gas card for me. Usually he only uses that cash till, one at college or pays by card at Greggs, Home Bargains or Subway (only small amounts for his lunch).

Was all the other information used in the fraudulent application legitimate? In other words: I've tried to answer your questions below but I have no idea as Wonga haven't told us

Full Name His Full name is not given anywhere though his middle initial is included in the electoral register
d.o.b Possibly via FB, though not open access (is this included in the electoral register?)
address and postcodeCan be gained via the electoral register - I did a google search and found most of it, would have to register with 192.com for the rest
telephone numbers We're not ex-directory but Wonga didn't have any of his numbers (and the house phone is under my surname which is different to my son's)
email address Not on FB but Wonga haven't emailed us so false email could have been given
employment details He's not employed and still a student with no money
bank account details (which they could not have got from the card) and Wonga will not accept applications with just a bank card (although some PDL companies do) Definitely not on FB or anywhere else (we also don't put bank statements in the bin)

Now maybe, just maybe, someone could get all of the information above from Facebook and make the application in less than 2 hours, allowing a further one hour for the funds to be deposited (Wonga usually take longer for 1st applications), allowing an additional hour to withdraw the money. But how did they get your sons bank account details on the basis of just the stolen bank card? Was anything else stolen at the same time? Nothing else was stolen at the time so this is where I really get stumped - it just doesn't make sense that it can be done with the limited amount of information that was accessible.

If the information above was not correct in the fraudulent application then Wonga don't have a leg to stand on either. Thanks for this



Wonga typically set what someone can borrow in their first application so while its a small amount multiply that by 10 and you get a nice monthly income thanks very much.



Wonga lend money to people on benefits, and have even been known to lend money to people under the age of 18 (which is unlawful), so it is no surprise.

I think the big thing for you to do here is push back very hard on the Halifax. They have allowed the account to be used fraudulently, though I would be careful of mentioning Facebook if your son has been careless in applying privacy settings as Halifax may try to put responsibility onto him if that is the case. Again, thanks for this I will go and be my son's 'muscle', having had extensive dealings with the Halifax before I know they can be difficult

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

As an aside, my son said when he first spoke to the Wonga fraud department they asked him to give his address and the sum so they could find the loan.

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

A bit of an update.

My son had actually changed his pin that morning (in the local shop were he got the money out) but with all the stress of dealing with the situation had forgotten (and then not told me).

We went into branch today and still ended up on the phone as the branch couldn't help. The number for the Fraud line was not working (giving the unobtainable signal) so went via the customer help desk. My son got through to the fraud line eventually but the lady on the phone kept putting him on hold and then coming back and saying that he must have given the PIN away, even though he kept saying he hadn't, even trying to imply the friend he'd met could have been responsible (it's his best friend who he's known for years). After over half an hour with them still insisting he was at fault and them not really listening or changing their stance he asked them to talk to me. The lady on the phone said they'd closed the case and there was nothing they could do, I asked to speak to her manager and she said she'd transfer me, about 5 minutes later she came back on the phone and asked to speak to my son again. They had decided they could do something else and have referred it to the Further Investigation Team! We spent 45 minutes on the phone but my son feels a bit happier and I think they are listening now (though think it still might be a slow job).

Just have to do something similar with Wonga now - think my son needs to ask them for the details they were given by whoever applied for the loan in his name so we can see what was said and can therefore disprove.

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Hi Late

My son had actually changed his pin that morning (in the local shop were he got the money out) but with all the stress of dealing with the situation had forgotten (and then not told me)

Well this changes things quite a bit. Its unlikely that this is 'premeditated' identify fraud if your son changed his pin number that morning.

We went into branch today and still ended up on the phone as the branch couldn't help. The number for the Fraud line was not working (giving the unobtainable signal) so went via the customer help desk. My son got through to the fraud line eventually but the lady on the phone kept putting him on hold and then coming back and saying that he must have given the PIN away, even though he kept saying he hadn't, even trying to imply the friend he'd met could have been responsible (it's his best friend who he's known for years). After over half an hour with them still insisting he was at fault and them not really listening or changing their stance he asked them to talk to me. The lady on the phone said they'd closed the case and there was nothing they could do, I asked to speak to her manager and she said she'd transfer me, about 5 minutes later she came back on the phone and asked to speak to my son again. They had decided they could do something else and have referred it to the Further Investigation Team! We spent 45 minutes on the phone but my son feels a bit happier and I think they are listening now (though think it still might be a slow job).

So this throws suspicion on the following:

1) Your son - sorry I know you wouldn't want to think about that but its still a possibility
2) The retailer of the store he changed his PIN number at
3) If a skimmer was placed on the machine then its possible a third party have still committed an act of fraud but it would be interesting to know how they did this unless they had his bank account details and in such a small space of time
4) A friend who may have been with him at the time who saw him enter the new PIN

Just have to do something similar with Wonga now - think my son needs to ask them for the details they were given by whoever applied for the loan in his name so we can see what was said and can therefore disprove.

Yes this is a good idea - the application though would have been online but your son is entitled to that information if Wonga are insisting he took out the loan!

I think the information you get from Wonga is critical here - you need to demand from them the information that was provided during the loan application. If they refuse to play ball you can make a CCA request (which will cost you £1), which they are then legally obliged to provide a copy of the credit agreement that was provided within a 14 day period, or if that still has no joy then make an application for a SAR (subject access request) which will cost you £10, and then they have 40 days to provide this information.

Personally I wouldn't be inclined to pay a penny, but you may have to go down this route to force Wonga to play ball.

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Thanks for this SnV.

Regarding your suspicions, I have considered my son but don't believe that to be the case this time - he's not good at hiding things and the worry for him around this was clear. When he changed his PIN he was on his own in the shop as he didn't meet his friend till later. However the shop does have a CCTV camera pointing in the general direction of the cash till inside the shop and it is an old rather battered stand alone cash till - last time I used it the top was held on with tape!

I'll have to look up the CCA and SAR requests you mentioned as I'm not familiar with these but certainly sounds the way to go. I've told my son to keep an eye on his account now and to not use it - he may well close it after this - and I will now give him his travel etc for college in cash. The lady in the Halifax (not the one over the phone) did tell him to keep an eye on his credit reports/ratings as well.

Thanks again

LATE

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

I've just seen this.

I'd like to ask, how old is your son? Sorry if you've said but I've missed it. I'll then give you some help as go how ID Fraud works; that is my industry after all, however be prepared for some cold hard truths....!

[IF]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

From post 1 Nid

........ my 18 year old son