FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

[DoTheyMeanMe]

I helped a friend to make three PPI claims against NatWest - two for loans and one for a credit card. The loan claims were upheld and paid-out, the credit card was refused.

I appealed to the FOS who have written to say they are, "not upholding the complaint".

It appears that, because NatWest have so little information relating to this PPI (it was taken in 1998), the FOS have found in their favour - ridiculous as it sounds.

In the appeal to the FOS we even gave the name of the NatWest employee who told her that she would not get the card if she did not take the PPI. He was the same employee who mis-sold her PPI on one of the loans that has been refunded.

I just cannot get my head around the FOS reasoning at all.
My friend recollects taking the card and the conversation she had at the time.
NatWest have no contradictory information - they do not even have her original card application.
The NatWest employee no longer works for them.

Yet the FOS refuse the appeal.

We have just over 2 weeks to disagree with their assessment.

There seems to be a problem uploading a pdf file at present (I am getting an AAD database error message) so I will keep trying.

In the meantime, please can anyone advise of the best way to deal with this.

[ken100464]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Suspect its something to do with loans probably being front loaded. A missell in its own right which is probably why they got paid out no problems.

A they said we said dispute is difficult and probably the weakest reason to win if you win at all.

Hard to stomach when you are being branded as less than truthful about a moment in time when you were there and the bank employee defending the claim and the FOS adjudicator werent.

However its a bank and the Fobbing Off Service so expected.

Have to see what the letter says but was there anything else in the dispute other than this bank employee told your friend she had to have it?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Tester PDF upload

Tester pdf.pdf <<<- click me

Works fine....? Can you screen print the error and PM it me please...? Or email me the pdf and I will load it.

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

The tester works fine - must be a problem with my pdf file.

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

FOS letter scans:

Couldn't get the pdf uploaded so four jpegs instead.

Advice on how to proceed welcome.

[ken100464]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Well I would appeal it.

One because they believe the bank over your friend. However does the bank have meeting notes from the employee who left? Seems to say they have limited information on this. Was the adjudicator at the meeting? So only one party your friend was at this meeting. They have no evidence to suggest her version of the meeting is incorrect. Therefore they are believing a bank who had no one present over her who was present. Basically calling her a liar. Did she ever SAR Natwest?

Two because the benifit for sickness is possibly poor value. If indeed she did have 12 months sick pay then the benifit of the policy would end just when she did need it.

I would unless you have it already be asking for the policy document and see what this T&C actually says.

Too often you see people who had a devil of a job collecting on this because of all the hoops you have to jump through to get it

You may find some weazel words along the lines if you have employers benifits the PPI kicks in after that ends. But as the benifit is only in existance for 12 months after the illness started then when her employers benifit ended so did the PPI.

Am sure Di will be along shortly to add her vast experience on this.

[di30]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Hi there

Sorry for being late posting this, and I have to agree with Ken from word to word.

Credit card ppi somehow seems more difficult to make a complaint on, because it varies on the protection, as its not a single ppi like the usual loan ppi etc....

What they usually say in regards of credit card ppi is that, it's beneficial for hospital cover, job solutions etc, but the point here is you are paying fully for a product that is not fully beneficial for your requirements.
And the fact they almost always used to just add it to the finance automatically!

(sorry having probs opening links at the mo), but defo do send in anything further, and tell them why you disagree and the points you feel they overlooked on here.

As you know as well, if the adjudicator does not agree with the mis selling, you can ask for it to be reviewed by the FOS.

They seem to be getting worse the FOS!!!

[MattyA]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

I agree with Ken & Di.

Appeal it and for the reasons you state above, to me it is a clear cut case of mis-selling.

'My friend recollects taking the card and the conversation she had at the time.
NatWest have no contradictory information - they do not even have her original card application.
The NatWest employee no longer works for them.'



The FOS are seeming as though they are now sideing with the banks more & more often.

Matty

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Well I would appeal it.

One because they believe the bank over your friend. However does the bank have meeting notes from the employee who left? Seems to say they have limited information on this. Was the adjudicator at the meeting? So only one party your friend was at this meeting. They have no evidence to suggest her version of the meeting is incorrect. Therefore they are believing a bank who had no one present over her who was present. Basically calling her a liar.

Completely agree with that thinking - this is why is pees me off so much.

Did she ever SAR Natwest?

Yes. They provided info for the last 6 years only. Their covering letter says, "We are unable to provide a copy of the original application form".

Two because the benifit for sickness is possibly poor value. If indeed she did have 12 months sick pay then the benifit of the policy would end just when she did need it.

I would unless you have it already be asking for the policy document and see what this T&C actually says.

I have a copy of the Certificate of Insurance as provided by NatWest in their refusal of the claim.

Too often you see people who had a devil of a job collecting on this because of all the hoops you have to jump through to get it

You may find some weazel words along the lines if you have employers benifits the PPI kicks in after that ends. But as the benifit is only in existance for 12 months after the illness started then when her employers benifit ended so did the PPI.

It simply says 12 months cover, starting from the 15th day of disability.

Am sure Di will be along shortly to add her vast experience on this.

Hi there

Sorry for being late posting this, and I have to agree with Ken from word to word.

Credit card ppi somehow seems more difficult to make a complaint on, because it varies on the protection, as its not a single ppi like the usual loan ppi etc....

What they usually say in regards of credit card ppi is that, it's beneficial for hospital cover, job solutions etc, but the point here is you are paying fully for a product that is not fully beneficial for your requirements.
And the fact they almost always used to just add it to the finance automatically!

(sorry having probs opening links at the mo), but defo do send in anything further, and tell them why you disagree and the points you feel they overlooked on here.

As you know as well, if the adjudicator does not agree with the mis selling, you can ask for it to be reviewed by the FOS.

That must be the next course of action.
Is it possible to get copies of the information provided by NatWest to the FOS in their defence of the claim?

They seem to be getting worse the FOS!!!

The original claim to NatWest said:

This credit card was taken out at the time I became a NatWest customer. It was offered to me as a replacement for the credit card I had with my previous bank. It was done in the NatWest branch in Hartlepool.
I was informed that I had to take out the insurance as I had previously had insurance on the card issued by my previous bank and NatWest was providing like-for-like.
Costs and benefits were not explained but I may have been given a leaflet.
No questions were asked before I took out this insurance.
I took the insurance because I was told that the new card had to be on the same basis as my previous one, which had insurance.
My health deteriorated in 2002 when I suffered a Deep Vein Thrombosis. I was unable to claim on the insurance because my employer paid my full salary throughout my illness.

As we all agree, the further appeal to the ombudsman needs to be on the grounds of the lack of any evidence from NatWest that contradicts the above.

The one thing that really make my piss boil is:

The FOS refusal letter says, "I do not think NatWest recommended you take out the policy". Too bloody right they didn't recommend it, they effectively said, "No PPI = no card". "Given the length of time since the sale, there is very little information available for me to safely conclude that the policy was not presented to you as optional in this way". So now there is no evidence and this makes the bank innocent of mis-selling.

She suffered a Deep Vein Thrombosis in 2002 and contacted her local branch about a making a claim. She was told that she could not claim because she received full salary during sickness. She did not question this advice.

So, can I get copies of what NatWest have told the FOS, and can I get them before the deadline for appealing their decision expires on 24th April?

[di30]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

The original claim to NatWest said:

This credit card was taken out at the time I became a NatWest customer. It was offered to me as a replacement for the credit card I had with my previous bank. It was done in the NatWest branch in Hartlepool.
I was informed that I had to take out the insurance as I had previously had insurance on the card issued by my previous bank and NatWest was providing like-for-like.
Costs and benefits were not explained but I may have been given a leaflet.
No questions were asked before I took out this insurance.
I took the insurance because I was told that the new card had to be on the same basis as my previous one, which had insurance.
My health deteriorated in 2002 when I suffered a Deep Vein Thrombosis. I was unable to claim on the insurance because my employer paid my full salary throughout my illness.

As we all agree, the further appeal to the ombudsman needs to be on the grounds of the lack of any evidence from NatWest that contradicts the above.

The one thing that really make my piss boil is:

The FOS refusal letter says, "I do not think NatWest recommended you take out the policy". Too bloody right they didn't recommend it, they effectively said, "No PPI = no card". "Given the length of time since the sale, there is very little information available for me to safely conclude that the policy was not presented to you as optional in this way". So now there is no evidence and this makes the bank innocent of mis-selling.

She suffered a Deep Vein Thrombosis in 2002 and contacted her local branch about a making a claim. She was told that she could not claim because she received full salary during sickness. She did not question this advice.

So, can I get copies of what NatWest have told the FOS, and can I get them before the deadline for appealing their decision expires on 24th April?

I would definately give it a go on asking for the copies, the adjudicator as well on request should be able to send you the details from what I can recall.

[SXGuy]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

i agree, i think you have a right to see it so you can appeal.

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Right, letter done and going off today.

I have said:

I have discussed this matter in depth with Miss Xxxx and she disagrees with the conclusions you have arrived at and with your decision not to uphold her complaint. It is her wish that you reconsider your decision and she has asked me to write to you separately on the matter.

To assist me in making a fair case on her behalf, please will you forward to me whatever information NatWest provided to you which you considered in reaching your decision? Upon receipt of such information I will write again, making her case.

Her disagreement with your decision will include some new information but will also be on the basis that she does not believe you have fully understood the facts of her case.


Now let's see what, if anything, we get back.


DTMM

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Got a reply from the FOS. NatWest had not provided any documents other than a copy of the original PPI policy conditions.

So, the FOS had based their refusal (as we thought) purely on NatWest effectively saying, "Our procedures were so good we didn't mis-sell PPI". Which we know is a load of bollox.

I have written to the FOS asking them to review the decision and providing some additional medical information. On the claim form we failed to say my friend was on medication for depression at the time of the sale. They have asked for proof of this so it looks like a visit to her doctor for a copy of her medical records.

Let's see if that works in her favour.

DTMM

[ken100464]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

And these are the decisions FOS keep getting wrong just because the bank is a big entity. So they believe them and not the person who was there.

Ok if the bank has procedures why doesnt FOS ask to prove them.

If their procedures were so right there wouldnt have been a cumulative bill of nearly £10billion for PPI.

If the bank doesnt have proof that it wasnt a missale it should be awarded by default to the customer who was there.

Good luck keep plugging away. Frustrating I know.

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Thanks for the support Ken.

They are on a hiding to nothing with this one anyway. If I win the PPI will clear the balance, if I lose it is UE anyway as they have lost the agreement. I am just determined to give them as much hassle as possible, one way or another.

DTMM