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  • #1

    The business of debt.....

    Hi all,I have just found this site,if only I had found it a few months ago!

    I have not read the entire site and no doubt my question/comment has been asked and answered several times already........

    Anyway, has anyone successfully argued at the small claims court that the debt they have is not enforceable as it is not legal ? by which I mean if I owe a credit card company say £3,000.For various reasons I cannot pay it off.Eventually the debt is passed to a DRA who pursue the debt.

    Am I correct in thinking that once the credit card company pass on or sell the debt to the DRA the original debt is written off and it cannot be pursued?

    Likewise if at the point of selling the debt to the DRA why cannot the credit card company offer me the chance to pay the debt at the same rate the DRA pay? In the above example I would have to pay them £300 which would be manageable for most people surely?

    Also if the DRA do not provide me with a copy of the original credit card agreement within 14 days of asking can the debt be chased or is that an urban myth?
    Thanks for reading this I will now look through the site and find the answers to my own questions no doubt!
    Last edited by SaltnVinegar; 7 June 2016, 11:35. Reason: Edited formatting
    Tags: business, card, cca, cca request, claims, court, credit, credit card, credit cards, debt, default, full and final, legal, letter, myth, pay, people, purchase, questions, rate, reading, selling, settlements, small, storecards, tax, world
  • #2
    Re: The business of debt.....

    Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
    Hi all,I have just found this site,if only I had found it a few months ago!
    I have not read the entire site and no doubt my question/comment has been asked and answered several times already........
    Anyway,has anyone successfully argued at the small claims court that the debt they have is not enforceable as it is not legal ?
    Yes, there have been quite a few cases where the courts have found a debt to be unenforceable, however, that does not make it illegal. The result is that the court dismisses the claim and no judgment is made. Some of the cases are rather well known and have been mentioned on various sites over the past five or so years but they are all based around different arguments. For example, one concerned storecards that were upgraded to full credit cards without a new agreement, others referred to the assignment, defective default notices, etc. Not all cases have been reported, many are simply dismissed in court.
    Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
    by which I mean if I owe a credit card company say £3,000.For various reasons I cannot pay it off.Eventually the debt is passed to a DRA who pursue the debt.Am I correct in thinking that once the credit card company pass on or sell the debt to the DRA the original debt is written off and it cannot be pursued?
    The original debt is written off for tax purposes by the original creditor but that doesn't stop the company that bought the debt from pursuing it. If debts couldn't be pursued, there would be no reason to buy them.
    Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
    Likewise if at the point of selling the debt to the DRA why cannot the credit card company offer me the chance to pay the debt at the same rate the DRA pay? In the above example I would have to pay them £300 which would be manageable for most people surely?
    You mean pay the amount the debt buyer paid, which would be in the region of 10%? If that was the case, there would be no debt purchase industry and no profit to be made. Low full and final settlements are often accepted, although probably not as low as 10% and not everyone would be in a position to offer £300 as you suggest.
    Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
    Also if the DRA do not provide me with a copy of the original credit card agreement within 14 days of asking can the debt be chased or is that an urban myth?
    Thanks for reading this I will now look through the site and find the answers to my own questions no doubt!
    The creditor has 12 working days and 2 extra days allowed for service, to respond to a CCA request. If they don't, the debt becomes unenforceable until they provide you with the agreement, which can be a copy of the original or a reconstitution. Failure to comply within that timescale does not make the account irredeemably unenforceable, that only happens in cases where the required terms were no present at the time of signing and only applies if you took out the card before April 6th 2007.

    If you send a CCA request and they don't respond and keep chasing the debt, you can write back to them saying they are in default of your request and the account is unenforceable but they can provide you with the documents at any time after that.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: The business of debt.....

      Hi Lotties Dad and welcome to AAD!




      Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
      Anyway, has anyone successfully argued at the small claims court that the debt they have is not enforceable as it is not legal ?
      A court can make a judgement that the agreement is not enforceable (due to various contractual/procedural arguments) but it will still be 'legal', it just means the creditor cannot enforce the debt.

      Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
      Am I correct in thinking that once the credit card company pass on or sell the debt to the DRA the original debt is written off and it cannot be pursued?
      Simply - no you are not correct. There are various levels of 'assignment' of a debt, which lays down what a debt purchasors rights and obligations are though.

      Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
      Likewise if at the point of selling the debt to the DRA why cannot the credit card company offer me the chance to pay the debt at the same rate the DRA pay? In the above example I would have to pay them £300 which would be manageable for most people surely?
      Because if they offered that option to the general public, what incentive would there be for anyone to make payments on credit?

      There was a great article in the news today though of a guy in the US who bought approx $15M of medical debt for approx $60K and then wrote it all off as an act of philantropy!

      Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
      Also if the DRA do not provide me with a copy of the original credit card agreement within 14 days of asking can the debt be chased or is that an urban myth?
      Take a look here for how that works

      http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...PDATED-09-2015

      Can I ask where you are getting some of your information from? It sounds like you have been reading some 'freeman of the land' theories? Maybe you've been to the 'Get Out of Debt Free' website?

      If so then I would urge you to extreme caution before adopting any of that approach - it is not proven in court, and those that have been taken to court by creditors using those arguments have received severe spankings.
      "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

      The consumer is that sleeping giant.!!


      I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

      If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: The business of debt.....

        Originally posted by SaltnVinegar View Post
        There was a great article in the news today though of a guy in the US who bought approx $15M of medical debt for approx $60K and then wrote it all off as an act of philantropy!
        ...and then there was the suggestion that the amount written off in each case could be construed as "enrichment" and thus subject to taxation! I've never heard of anything like that in the UK, i.e. if you get a debt written off by, say, Wonga, you are supposed to pay taxes on that amount, even though its not income or money you actually received. Not to mention the outrageous medical bills in the first place. Only in America!
        Originally posted by SaltnVinegar View Post
        Can I ask where you are getting some of your information from? It sounds like you have been reading some 'freeman of the land' theories? Maybe you've been to the 'Get Out of Debt Free' website?

        If so then I would urge you to extreme caution before adopting any of that approach - it is not proven in court, and those that have been taken to court by creditors using those arguments have received severe spankings.
        It doesn't sound like GOODF, I'm well acquainted with their approach, based on the infamous "three letter process". Speaking of the FMOTL, are you aware that the site in question have been emailing people asking for donations in order to get on the right side of the FCA? Although slightly off-topic on this thread, it is an interesting development in the forum world.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: The business of debt.....

          All the best xx
          if you do it today and you like it you can always do it again tomorrow

          I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

          If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: The business of debt.....

            Originally posted by lottiesdad View Post
            Hi all,I have just found this site,if only I had found it a few months ago!

            I have not read the entire site and no doubt my question/comment has been asked and answered several times already........

            Anyway, has anyone successfully argued at the small claims court that the debt they have is not enforceable as it is not legal ? by which I mean if I owe a credit card company say £3,000.For various reasons I cannot pay it off.Eventually the debt is passed to a DRA who pursue the debt.

            Am I correct in thinking that once the credit card company pass on or sell the debt to the DRA the original debt is written off and it cannot be pursued?

            Likewise if at the point of selling the debt to the DRA why cannot the credit card company offer me the chance to pay the debt at the same rate the DRA pay? In the above example I would have to pay them £300 which would be manageable for most people surely?

            Also if the DRA do not provide me with a copy of the original credit card agreement within 14 days of asking can the debt be chased or is that an urban myth?
            Thanks for reading this I will now look through the site and find the answers to my own questions no doubt!
            Yes, this site has a good success rate in this area, through discontinuance and at trial.

            Re your question about re-assignment of debt, no - the debt remains due and payable (assuming all the regulations of the consumer credit act 1974 have been complied with as well as assignment protocols).

            I assume you are referring to section 77/78/79 of the consumer credit act 1974. If the creditor does not comply with the statutory request, then the agreement is unenforceable against the borrower until the creditor does comply.
            Legal Disclaimer
            I am a Litigation Executive at Joanna Connolly Solicitors a firm which specialises in consumer credit. Any posts I make on the AAD Consumer Forum are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any advice I provide on the forum is without liability. If you are unsure please seek formal legal guidance or contact your local citizens advice bureau at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk

            If you need to contact me you can send me a message by clicking my username or by emailing me at gerry@joannaconnollysolicitors.co.uk or by telephoning 0330 053 9340. If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: The business of debt.....

              Hi and welcome to AAD, feel free to ask any questions. As has been said your premise is incorrect, but as you read around the site here are many ways to deal with debts.
              I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

              If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: The business of debt.....

                Originally posted by BuzzyBee View Post
                Speaking of the FMOTL, are you aware that the site in question have been emailing people asking for donations in order to get on the right side of the FCA? Although slightly off-topic on this thread, it is an interesting development in the forum world.
                We were the first to dispel the theory that a forum needs regulated. They don't. We follow basic guidelines and have a solicitor on record for us. No other forum does so we stand apart from the wannabes.

                As you know full well hence you broached the subject!!
                I'm the forum administrator and I look after the theme & features, our volunteers & users and also look after any complaints or Data Protection queries that pass through the forum or main website. I am extremely busy so if you do contact me or need a reply to a forum post then use the email or PM features offered because I do miss things and get tied up for days at a time!

                If you spot any spammers, AE's, abusive or libellous posts or anything else that just doesn't feel right then please report them to me as soon as you spot them at: webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: The business of debt.....

                  Originally posted by Never-In-Doubt View Post
                  We were the first to dispel the theory that a forum needs regulated. They don't. We follow basic guidelines and have a solicitor on record for us. No other forum does so we stand apart from the wannabes.

                  As you know full well hence you broached the subject!!
                  I was not referring to this site but to GOODF after Salt & Vinegar mentioned it. Maybe that's just an excuse to get people to part with their money, I have no intention of contributing, but this was on their email:

                  3. To regrade to an FCA guided service, to offer full honest advice to all members and visitors (£20000.00)
                  Does it really cost £20,000 to get FCA authorisation?

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: The business of debt.....

                    Haha. I too received the email.

                    No. It doesn't cost anything like that however that particular site would fail basic principles based on the nonsense and unlawful bollocks they try & guide people to.

                    For the record we are totally FCA compliant thus don't require an application for regulation.

                    Anyway back to the subject matter in hand.
                    I'm the forum administrator and I look after the theme & features, our volunteers & users and also look after any complaints or Data Protection queries that pass through the forum or main website. I am extremely busy so if you do contact me or need a reply to a forum post then use the email or PM features offered because I do miss things and get tied up for days at a time!

                    If you spot any spammers, AE's, abusive or libellous posts or anything else that just doesn't feel right then please report them to me as soon as you spot them at: webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: The business of debt.....

                      I mentioned FOTL and GOODF as the OP made a comment that suggested they may have been reading some 'bill of sale' BS. Hopefully the OP will come back and enlighten us
                      "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

                      The consumer is that sleeping giant.!!


                      I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

                      If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: The business of debt.....

                        Hi lottiesdad, welcome to AAD

                        I've figured GOODF although on of the google options comes up with a Goodfellows desert pizza!

                        Can't figure FOTL!

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: The business of debt.....

                          Get out of debt free / Freedom of the land
                          I'm the forum administrator and I look after the theme & features, our volunteers & users and also look after any complaints or Data Protection queries that pass through the forum or main website. I am extremely busy so if you do contact me or need a reply to a forum post then use the email or PM features offered because I do miss things and get tied up for days at a time!

                          If you spot any spammers, AE's, abusive or libellous posts or anything else that just doesn't feel right then please report them to me as soon as you spot them at: webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: The business of debt.....

                            Know all !
                            if you do it today and you like it you can always do it again tomorrow

                            I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

                            If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: The business of debt.....

                              Originally posted by marypoppins View Post
                              Hi lottiesdad, welcome to AAD

                              I've figured GOODF although on of the google options comes up with a Goodfellows desert pizza!

                              Can't figure FOTL!
                              That's because it's more commonly abbreviated as FMOTL, google that and you'll see, no pizzas for you then!

                              Comment

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