Mortgage question

[lookingforward]

Quick Q,

Some time back we were taken to court for repossesion which we managed to stave off and agree an affordable payment plan with the mortgage Company. After keeping up with this for a while the they wrote to us stating they had consolidated the arrears onto the loan so we no longer had any arrears.

Fast forward to taday and we again find ourselves in arrears and the Mrs had to phone to make a suitable repayment plan with them this evening. At the end of the conversation the chap had to re-cap all that had been said and part of the spiel was that she was reminded that a repossesion order (or words to that effect) was in place that could be activated at any time.

Is that right ? we thought once the arrears for that particular instance we consolidated the RO went with it.

[PlanB]

Re: Mortgage question

When you say you agreed an affordable payment plan, do you mean the possession proceedings were "adjourned generally with liberty to restore" (that's the typical wording on the court Order) because you did a private deal with your lender before any hearing took place? If so this would mean the court didn't make a Suspended Possession Order which stated the amount you should pay towards the arrears on top of your contractual monthly mortgage payment.

Or do you mean you agreed a payment plan and also agreed to a Suspended Possession Order by consent which the court rubber stamped?

Clarify that for me first.

But either way once the arrears have been capitalized (added to the loan) then you don't have arrears so no one can issue possession proceedings against you or enforce any SPO already achieved. But they can make a fresh application for new arrears.

[lookingforward]

Re: Mortgage question

Hi,
Thanks for replying

We actually met a lovely lady from CAB in the court house on the day of the hearing by chance. She went through all our figures and actually got us to reduce the amount we were going to pay extra each month to make sure it was affordable. She then called in the other sides solicitor and got them to agree to the amount so by the time we went into court we knew we were going to be OK.
The wording on the subsequent letter from the court is headed Order for possession (Mortgaged premises) (suspended)
It goes on to say that the order is not to be enforced so long as the defendant pays the claimant the unpaid instalments under the mortgage of £xxxx by the payments set out below in addition to the current instalments under the mortgage.

It the gives the extra amount we'd agreed on.

Permission to the claiment to apply for a review of payment of arrears not before 1.4.09 (which was 6 months)

To the defendant

The court has ordered that unless you pay the arrears and costs set out in addition to your current rent you must leave the premises.
The arrears were capitalised in apr 09 and the letter states that the arrears balance has been reduced to zero

[PlanB]

Re: Mortgage question

The arrears were capitalised in apr 09 and the letter states that the arrears balance has been reduced to zero

Okay, so you had a Suspended Possession Order (what year was the order?) and the arrears stated in that Order were either paid off or capitalized five years ago (April 2009). I would say that court order is as extinct as a dodo.

[PlanB]

Re: Mortgage question

the chap had to re-cap all that had been said and part of the spiel was that she was reminded that a repossesion order (or words to that effect) was in place that could be activated at any time.

Is that right ?

No

[PlanB]

Re: Mortgage question

Fast forward to taday and we again find ourselves in arrears and the Mrs had to phone to make a suitable repayment plan with them this evening.

Step away from the phone. Everything must be done in writing from now on. You are laying a paper trail for the court in case you find yourselves back there again.

How many months are you in arrears?

I'll go into the nitty gritty tomorrow but I want to make sure that your lender can't issue new proceedings imminently using the PCOL system. I'm guessing your Mrs made the call tonight because it's the end of the month and you weren't able to meet your contractual payment.

Your lender must follow Pre-Action Protocol. This is a new set of circumstances so the new CPRs should apply. It's not 2009 now. Who is your lender?

I need to peek at your UE Diary (if you have one) to see the overall picture. Your mortgage is a priority never mind DCAs.

I'll be back tomorrow

[lookingforward]

Re: Mortgage question

Okay, so you had a Suspended Possession Order (what year was the order?) and the arrears stated in that Order were either paid off or capitalized five years ago (April 2009). I would say that court order is as extinct as a dodo.

2008 was the year

[lookingforward]

Re: Mortgage question

Step away from the phone. Everything must be done in writing from now on. You are laying a paper trail for the court in case you find yourselves back there again.

How many months are you in arrears?

I'll go into the nitty gritty tomorrow but I want to make sure that your lender can't issue new proceedings imminently using the PCOL system. I'm guessing your Mrs made the call tonight because it's the end of the month and you weren't able to meet your contractual payment.

Your lender must follow Pre-Action Protocol. This is a new set of circumstances so the new CPRs should apply. It's not 2009 now. Who is your lender?

I need to peek at your UE Diary (if you have one) to see the overall picture. Your mortgage is a priority never mind DCAs.

I'll be back tomorrow

Hi and thanks.

Yes she had to phone to make the normal monthly mortgage payment. The previous arrangement to pay back arrears ended a few months back and because things were tight she's been using the automated telephone payment system to pay the full mortgage amount up until now. They add an arrears monitoring charge of £54.00 each month so I've been pestering her to phone and sort out a new arrangement ASAP. She tried to do this tonight but their way of working out what we have spare works out different to what we had worked out somehow. This meant they wanted more overpayment than we had allowed for so she paid the full mortgage amount and has said she will ring back the middle of next month to sort out a new arrangement when we've looked at the figures again.

They didn't say they were going to go to court again she said, it seemed more a case of he had to read a script, however the wording wasn't the normal "if you don't keep up with your payments" stuff, it was about the prev case.

She's around 7 months in arrears so they have been pretty good it has to be said (Mortgages PLC) . It built up over several months a while back but she hasn't missed the full payment in ages now, however we can only pay off something like £50 towards the arrears now. The last arrangement was for something like £15 p/m off but because they give her such a hard time on the phone with figures she put off making a new arrangement so instead of the £54 charge not being applied it has been.

Not paying anything to creditors at the mo so nothing to see in the diary.

As it stands I get the feeling that she could phone and offer the mortgage plus £50.00 and they will be quite happy so don't need to worry too much at the moment but would be grateful of advice going forward to keep us out of court if possible

[PlanB]

Re: Mortgage question

They add an arrears monitoring charge of £54.00 each month . . . . .

. . . their way of working out what we have spare works out different to what we had worked out somehow. This meant they wanted more overpayment than we had allowed for so she paid the full mortgage amount and has said she will ring back the middle of next month to sort out a new arrangement when we've looked at the figures again.

She's around 7 months in arrears so they have been pretty good it has to be said (Mortgages PLC) . It built up over several months a while back but she hasn't missed the full payment in ages now, however we can only pay off something like £50 towards the arrears now. The last arrangement was for something like £15 p/m off but because they give her such a hard time on the phone with figures she put off making a new arrangement so instead of the £54 charge not being applied it has been.

As it stands I get the feeling that she could phone and offer the mortgage plus £50.00 and they will be quite happy so don't need to worry too much at the moment but would be grateful of advice going forward to keep us out of court if possible

If you have seven months mortgage arrears then it's fair to say that Mortgages plc have been very lenient but don't count on that going on forever. Six months' arrears is the turning point when they can go for repossession under Pre-Action Protocol. I think the bloke she spoke to last night was not trained in housing law so probably didn't know that you can't (or shouldn't) revive an old court order. He probably saw a SPO in the history and assumed it was still 'live' so used that to pile on the pressure.

Please don't ring them again. Write a letter seeking clarification on a few things while at the same time making an offer. I would head the letter "Complaint" to get it taken seriously.

1. Express your upset at being told that your home is still subject to a Suspended Possession Order when the arrears in that Order were either paid or capitalized in 2009. Ask them to confirm that the original order cannot be resurrected (you need his in writing in case they try for a court hearing). If you've got a letter stating the arrears were paid off and the balance was zero enclose a copy of it.

2. Tell them you are aware of arrears which have built up since then and you had been paying these by way of an arrangement (ATP) at the rate of £15 (?) on top of your monthly payment. Your circumstances have not changed and you would like to continue with this ATP. Enclose an I & E which shows you can manage that amount. Express your upset that despite knowing your financial situation (they had your I & E) you felt you were being bullied on the phone to pay more than was previously acceptable using the threat of repossession.

3. Explain to them that the arrears figure has only increased due to their excessive charges of £54 per month to "monitor" the account. Ask them to stop these charges immediately and refund the ones they've already added to the account. Make it clear that if they don't then you will refer your complaint to the FOS. As you will see from this link the FOS take a hard line on lenders who charge excessive fees on people with mortgage arrears: http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.u...rears.html#cs4

If your wife can afford to make an extra £15 payment then it may be wise to do that on the phone auto-payment system today so she can add a final line to her letter which says she has done this. In other words she's re-instating the original ATP even if they aren't. Time to take control of the situation instead of the lender trying to control you by bullying.

[lookingforward]

Re: Mortgage question

If you have seven months mortgage arrears then it's fair to say that Mortgages plc have been very lenient but don't count on that going on forever. Six months' arrears is the turning point when they can go for repossession under Pre-Action Protocol. I think the bloke she spoke to last night was not trained in housing law so probably didn't know that you can't (or shouldn't) revive an old court order. He probably saw a SPO in the history and assumed it was still 'live' so used that to pile on the pressure.

Please don't ring them again. Write a letter seeking clarification on a few things while at the same time making an offer. I would head the letter "Complaint" to get it taken seriously.

1. Express your upset at being told that your home is still subject to a Suspended Possession Order when the arrears in that Order were either paid or capitalized in 2009. Ask them to confirm that the original order cannot be resurrected (you need his in writing in case they try for a court hearing). If you've got a letter stating the arrears were paid off and the balance was zero enclose a copy of it.

2. Tell them you are aware of arrears which have built up since then and you had been paying these by way of an arrangement (ATP) at the rate of £15 (?) on top of your monthly payment. Your circumstances have not changed and you would like to continue with this ATP. Enclose an I & E which shows you can manage that amount. Express your upset that despite knowing your financial situation (they had your I & E) you felt you were being bullied on the phone to pay more than was previously acceptable using the threat of repossession.

3. Explain to them that the arrears figure has only increased due to their excessive charges of £54 per month to "monitor" the account. Ask them to stop these charges immediately and refund the ones they've already added to the account. Make it clear that if they don't then you will refer your complaint to the FOS. As you will see from this link the FOS take a hard line on lenders who charge excessive fees on people with mortgage arrears: http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.u...rears.html#cs4

If your wife can afford to make an extra £15 payment then it may be wise to do that on the phone auto-payment system today so she can add a final line to her letter which says she has done this. In other words she's re-instating the original ATP even if they aren't. Time to take control of the situation instead of the lender trying to control you by bullying.

Thank you that's brilliant. Will get her to do that and yes she paid an extra £20.00 on top of the contractual amount so no £54.00 this month.

re your points:

1 - will do, yes we got a letter stating arrears were £0
2 - She was paying with an arrangement but they are very short lived, something like 3 months IIRC so the arrangement officially ended in Jan I believe. Regarding the I&E I actually did this for her but the surplus figure didn't match up to what the man on the phone had even though she'd read them all out. Something about the way the work the figures out, very hard for her to comprehend on the phone but also then hard for us to give them a figure, we had a surplus of £40 odd they said we had £100 odd ?? I think part of it was WTC figures we put a monthly amount but as paid 4 weekly they x13 and divided by 12 ?? they did this with some other too.
We also put in £500 for food/household which he said was excessive, there's us plus a 16 & 21 year old so they eat a lot. He was comparing his outgoings when he only has a newborn.
Is there a set way to do an I &E ?
3 - He said these weren't increasing the arrears, in which case they must be increasing the main loan and as we're on interest only at the moment that's not good at all.

Thanks

[lookingforward]

Re: Mortgage question

Do you know of any places that give guidance on what are acceptable figures to put on a I & E sheet ?
The man on the phone was in Scotland and was comparing things like his council tax and household bills with what we'd said when the 2 are comparable at all IMO. plus as I said he was a formula x13 divided by 12 which is fine for say Wkg Tax Credits because they are paid 4 weekly but he said that it also was used on other areas of the form which makes it hard for us to both get the same surplus figure. So when we write in we want to make sure we are using good information

[PlanB]

Re: Mortgage question

Send the lender the exact same I & E information as you gave them on the phone. Don't let them bully you into revising it. What you told them is the truth. Stick to the truth.

The lender's approach seems to be to establish how much money you've got leftover each month so they can take all of it. They are trying to get you to reduce your actual 'needs' so they can take more from you. Bugger that.

I need to know how much are your arrears, how long have you got left on the term of the loan, and how much equity you have in the property (or is it in negative equity?). You have the right to ask for those arrears to be paid off over the remaining life of the loan. We'll do that once you've heard back from your letter telling them that you want to re-instate your agreement to pay £15 per month extra.

I think it may be wise to tell them that you wish to re-establish the £15 payment but intend to overpay as and when you can. Then pay £20 each month or whatever is affordable.

[lookingforward]

Re: Mortgage question

Send the lender the exact same I & E information as you gave them on the phone. Don't let them bully you into revising it. What you told them is the truth. Stick to the truth.

The lender's approach seems to be to establish how much money you've got leftover each month so they can take all of it. They are trying to get you to reduce your actual 'needs' so they can take more from you. Bugger that.

I need to know how much are your arrears, how long have you got left on the term of the loan, and how much equity you have in the property (or is it in negative equity?). You have the right to ask for those arrears to be paid off over the remaining life of the loan. We'll do that once you've heard back from your letter telling them that you want to re-instate your agreement to pay £15 per month extra.

I think it may be wise to tell them that you wish to re-establish the £15 payment but intend to overpay as and when you can. Then pay £20 each month or whatever is affordable.

Thanks will do. Mrs said for example when she gave elec/gas bills he said they seemed high, she explained they included an element for arrears to which he said reduce the amount, the mortgage arrears is your priority the worst the utilities can do is take you to court/pre payment meters etc. We've been trying to stop meters because the tarriff is higher so we'd actually end up with less money. I do get the point about the mortgage being the priority but don't know what to do about that scenario, for example I can reduce the gas DD by about a tenner a month via their website but it won't let me put a smaller amount.

[PlanB]

Re: Mortgage question

I've got your PM and that all makes sense

According to the figures you have given me you would be able to clear your arrears by the end of the mortgage term if you pay £25.61 per month on top of your contractual payment. If you went to court to get that suspended possession order varied then that is what I would expect a DJ to order. This is because there's a legal precedent which says courts must use their discretion on spreading arrears over the life of the loan.

It's called Cheltenham & Gloucester vs Norgan here http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/1995/11.html Don't bother reading it today but we'll make sure that your lender gets to read it soon.

I'll go back through your thread later but in the meantime get that letter off to the lender with the same I & E figures which you gave them over the phone.

What did you offer to pay towards those arrears when you last spoke to them (sorry I know I should check back)? I think you said you were paying £15 per month and now they want more. The I & E you gave them over the phone showed £40 surplus per month. If you were to offer to pay £30 (only if that's affordable) then you start paying it you will have set yourself up nicely for any argument to vary that SPO in court. If they went for an Eviction Warrant you would bung in an application to vary which should frustrate it. Both applications would probably be heard at the same time.

Get that letter to them today by fax/email or whatever means you can. You need to keep them talking (so to speak). If you lose contact they may pounce. Always give them deadlines so that you are in control of the situation. Tell them you are seeking advice and you will get back to them again by Friday 11th April. Then nag me to suggest what should be in your next letter if I haven't posted by Thursday night.

[lookingforward]

Re: Mortgage question

Hi and thanks,

Paid £20.00 extra last time and could go to £26.00 as suggested. Just to confirm at the moment there is no threat to ressurect the possession order just the comment made at the end of the phone call made me query it.
So to re-cap what needs doing:-
1} Get a letter off headed "Complaint" with the same I & E as we gave over the phone
2} Put in the letter that we are upset that the home is still subject to a SPO even though the arrears that the SPO was subject to were capitalized in 2009. Ask for confirmation that the SPO cannot be ressurected and enclose the capitalization with zero arrears letter from 2009
3} Tell them we are aware arrears have built up and we have been paying by way of arrangements which have been reviewed at regular intervals and we are now going to pay £26.00 per month extra.
4} Tell them that we are now going to do communicate in writing only as we feel we were being bullied into increasing what was affordable in the last phone call.
5} Regarding the arrears monitoring charge, this is applied and reversed as long as an arrangement is in place however if there is not then it is added to the mortgage amount, not the arrears. So I'm not sure what to say about that so advice welcome..

Due to the time a letter would have to go out tomorrow but I could email as you suggested but does that have the sufficient paper trail ?

Thx