Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

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Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

This is a duplicate of the Blog Entry made on 16th October 2014 10:49.

*Welfare minister Lord Freud has apologised for "foolish and offensive" remarks in which he suggested people with disabilities could be paid less...

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[Pixie]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

Disgusting. Shouldn't be in that position if he holds those views.

[julian]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

I think that he is correct, after listening to what he said in context.

My sister would have been ecstatic to go to work daily, and at the weekends, for £2 per hour. As a severely disabled person through congenital Rubella Syndrome (German Measles), profoundly deaf and with learning difficulties, cataracts and other problems, she could never hold down a proper job. So with day centres closing and nothing to do but loll around, boredom sets in which causes issues. Outside the home, in social, guided and protective environments, like putting screws in plastic pockets, she iis entertained and the family has some respite for the other 16 hours of the day.

I do not believe the man was talking about people who have only lost the use of a leg or an arm, but people like my sister, who cannot ever be a fully independent worker.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

I think that he is correct, after listening to what he said in context.

My sister would have been ecstatic to go to work daily, and at the weekends, for £2 per hour. As a severely disabled person through congenital Rubella Syndrome (German Measles), profoundly deaf and with learning difficulties, cataracts and other problems, she could never hold down a proper job. So with day centres closing and nothing to do but loll around, boredom sets in which causes issues. Outside the home, in social, guided and protective environments, like putting screws in plastic pockets, she iis entertained and the family has some respite for the other 16 hours of the day.

I do not believe the man was talking about people who have only lost the use of a leg or an arm, but people like my sister, who cannot ever be a fully independent worker.

With due respect that is not the point there is a National Minimum Wage that applies to us all no matter of disability, religion, race or sex and no employer however big or small should deny anyone that and are subject to a large fine if they do.

Fact is we as a nation are not skint we are are a modern first world nation and the 6th richest in the world and if we start down that road just where will it end.

The fact your sister cannot hold down a proper job ( whatever a proper job is) is no fault of your sisters but the fault of the employer and to a certain extent the Govt for not accommodating her needs.

Just what is an independent worker we all work at different speeds not one box fits all the fact that she is willing to work and make an effort is enough and the NMW is not defined by how fast or how much work you do but is a minimum that you should be paid as an employee of said company.

There is also more to a job that just work like comradeship, using your mind to further a companies prospects, having an insight into health and safety etc all of which is worth a minimum wage.

[julian]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

Rant starting.

I think that you miss the point and the bigger picture. Unfortunately the word disability is an umbrella covering many conditions. Some are congenital and others are the result of accident, incident or lifestyle.

He did not say anybody with a disability should be on an amount less than a minimum wage. What he did imply was that certain disabled people were not capable of earning the minimum wage and that it is better to have some occupation with minimal payment than no occupation at all.

Fact is she went on a variety of schemes were the employers were subsidised to employ unemployed disabled people. Fact is she relished the environment. Fact is she was disemployed the moment the funds ended. Her benefits were reduced by the wages. Who benefits a result of such schemes? The person dismissed after settling in is in a worse state than at the start.

There is a world of difference between a tetraplegic who can read, write and review scientific documents, a person with Downs syndrome working effectively in administration or a warehouse, a war veteran or stroke victim working in a clerical or teaching position, a person with epilepsy working as a surveyor, a person with a pacemaker as an engineer and a person with MS who was a sheet metal worker. All are people I know, and all are good at their job except the person with MS who is in decline. The other disabilities are limiting in certain aspects, but not fatal per se. They deserve not the basic wage but the same as their peers. The MS sufferer can no longer work, but the pension is less than the minimum wage and his wife needs to be a full-time carer, where the 24 care requirement is not fully recompensed. He can't work because he cant stand or speak coherently, but he can read and understand when his eyes permit.

All the above differ from my sister in that they have mental capacity. They were not in special schools. They have mainstream education. They don't have psychotic events.

Where a severely disabled person is unable to work to the satisfaction and/or profit of an employer, where do they go for the comradeship? In the past, they would have worked on the family farm, factory, shop or been in an asylum or workhouse. With care in the community, they are drifting as almost all day centres for the people with learning difficulties are closed to people who can walk. These are people who cannot go out by themselves, cannot see and/or talk and/or hear. They may not be able to stand unaided or hold a pen. They certainly cannot use a computer, but may just be able to turn it on to watch a video, for 4 minutes before running the fourth bath of the day or tipping cornflakes on the floor and jumping on them. However give them a simple task of putting bobbins in a case and they can do it for hours.

There are many forms of disability and those people with a mental age of 8 or below need at least one to one supervision most of the time. They do deserve to be treated as people, but they are definitely last in the queue when it comes to employment. The useful compromise is to pay them less. Any payment they receive will be deducted from their benefits, but at least their colleagues will see them and perhaps value their other qualities. They would at least be aware of the existence of eternal toddlers and the impact they have on their families.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

I think that you miss the point and the bigger picture. Unfortunately the word disability is an umbrella covering many conditions. Some are congenital and others are the result of accident, incident or lifestyle.

Indeed everyones disabilities are different some worse than others, but should that really be a reason to slash someone's income below NMW? No off course not and many disabled persons have expenses over and above of an able bodied person as it is and yes they have DLA but that goes no were near covering it.

He did not say anybody with a disability should be on an amount less than a minimum wage. What he did imply was that certain disabled people were not capable of earning the minimum wage and that it is better to have some occupation with minimal payment than no occupation at all.

Everyone is Capable of earning the NMW as it is exactly that disability does not come into it, if you are working within the regulations of NMW then that is what you should receive no ifs no buts

Fact is she went on a variety of schemes were the employers were subsidised to employ unemployed disabled people. Fact is she relished the environment. Fact is she was disemployed the moment the funds ended. Her benefits were reduced by the wages. Who benefits a result of such schemes? The person dismissed after settling in is in a worse state than at the start.

That is no ones fault but the Governments and the Employer as countless employers are not Disability Confident and the uptake of employer grants to adapt the working environment for them is not used enough because they are either lazy or do not care when there is an abundance of able bodied to employ.

Where a severely disabled person is unable to work to the satisfaction and/or profit of an employer, where do they go for the comradeship? In the past, they would have worked on the family farm, factory, shop or been in an asylum or workhouse. With care in the community, they are drifting as almost all day centres for the people with learning difficulties are closed to people who can walk. These are people who cannot go out by themselves, cannot see and/or talk and/or hear. They may not be able to stand unaided or hold a pen. They certainly cannot use a computer, but may just be able to turn it on to watch a video, for 4 minutes before running the fourth bath of the day or tipping cornflakes on the floor and jumping on them. However give them a simple task of putting bobbins in a case and they can do it for hours.

So putting bobbins in a case is not worth NMW? Yes it is as the Govt has legislated so and Lord Freud has apologised and said everyone is worth NMW which is correct futhermore so there is an employer with 50 staff and two of them had some form of disability which causes through no fault of there own to work at a slower pace or needing more breaks there is no reason no reason at all in the name of humanity why that employer cannot subsidise those two employees and indeed the positives far outweigh the negatives.

There are many forms of disability and those people with a mental age of 8 or below need at least one to one supervision most of the time. They do deserve to be treated as people, but they are definitely last in the queue when it comes to employment.

And that should never be the case they should have the same opportunity as anyone else.

The useful compromise is to pay them less. Any payment they receive will be deducted from their benefits, but at least their colleagues will see them and perhaps value their other qualities. They would at least be aware of the existence of eternal toddlers and the impact they have on their families.

They should never be paid less that is a step back in time and just where will it lead.

Finally I am an SAH Stroke Survivor myself have worked with it for 17 yrs have seen the bullying and discrimination, have worked with good understanding employers and down right bad ones and my years since 2009 have been spent in the community campaigning for the rights of disabled persons and an a volunteer for the Stroke Association.

http://diaryofansahstrokesurvivor.wo...4/10/my-story/

[julian]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

Legislation has 'imposed' a National Minimum Wage which supports the right for everybody to receive a wage for work when they are in employment.

The argument here is a National Minimum Wage for Workers and support for those who provide no profit to an entrepreneur, but who require an occupation which has a value which can be positive and cover their employment costs or negative and may incur costs. It does not mean that you can pick and choose who to pay NMW, but employers do that now anyway. It was a suggestion to look at alternatives for severely disabled people who have nothing to do because there is no infrastructure for them.

I have been responsible for specifying environments for disabled people and implementing DDA strategies and costing and delivering them. I have heard and seen the distress of people trying to cope with disabilities, and the rampant abuse from certain individuals demanding the impossible simply because they carry their disability as a stick to beat those around them. On one occasion a worker sued the employer because he was not provided with a specific software package that he wanted. The package cost £1000 and it could not be provided as it would have removed the security from the entire service to over 50000 people. Despite having been offered alternative solutions he demanded that the package was his right and being refused infringed his rights. He lost the case. He lost goodwill. He waved the disability discrimination card, but all he did was to put back the DDA implementation activities. It took a while to recover the ground and the finance that he had lost for the cause.

You will never be able to force employers to take anyone who does not contribute. Major corporation have thresholds for disability recruitment. In most cases, they actively recruit through to the maximum and beyond in the disabled communities. However they choose the employees from a wide pool of people registered with different types and levels of disabilities and take the best for the job. Many people are registered disabled for disabilities that do not affect their life in the workplace and they count towards the quota in preference to those who will affect the workplace.

In a modern office building
A wheelchair user with upper body strength can use all facilities in a modern office without assistance.
A person with double incontinence can make provisions for their own care.
A person with certain ranges of cerebral palsy can be provided with aids to assist and support.
A person who is blind can be provided with an supportive and assistive environment.
A person with a mental age of 6 could be supported amd supervised at simple tasks, in cleaning and delivering mail
A person who is wheelchair bound, blind, with cerebral palsy and doubly incontinent and a mental age of 6 is an employer of full time carers

Perhaps you can persuade all employers to employ registered disabled people to fulfil the complete Disability Employment Quota or pay the wages into a fund to support the social 'employment' of disabled people e.g. invested in the provision of day centres and residential centres where severely disabled people can work.

I do not disparage your experience and issues as a person disabled by a stroke, but would advise you to visit a MenCap or Sense event and talk to the members and their carers so that you can work for their rights as well.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

Legislation has 'imposed' a National Minimum Wage which supports the right for everybody to receive a wage for work when they are in employment.

The argument here is a National Minimum Wage for Workers and support for those who provide no profit to an entrepreneur, but who require an occupation which has a value which can be positive and cover their employment costs or negative and may incur costs. It does not mean that you can pick and choose who to pay NMW, but employers do that now anyway. It was a suggestion to look at alternatives for severely disabled people who have nothing to do because there is no infrastructure for them.

I have been responsible for specifying environments for disabled people and implementing DDA strategies and costing and delivering them. I have heard and seen the distress of people trying to cope with disabilities, and the rampant abuse from certain individuals demanding the impossible simply because they carry their disability as a stick to beat those around them. On one occasion a worker sued the employer because he was not provided with a specific software package that he wanted. The package cost £1000 and it could not be provided as it would have removed the security from the entire service to over 50000 people. Despite having been offered alternative solutions he demanded that the package was his right and being refused infringed his rights. He lost the case. He lost goodwill. He waved the disability discrimination card, but all he did was to put back the DDA implementation activities. It took a while to recover the ground and the finance that he had lost for the cause.

You will never be able to force employers to take anyone who does not contribute. Major corporation have thresholds for disability recruitment. In most cases, they actively recruit through to the maximum and beyond in the disabled communities. However they choose the employees from a wide pool of people registered with different types and levels of disabilities and take the best for the job. Many people are registered disabled for disabilities that do not affect their life in the workplace and they count towards the quota in preference to those who will affect the workplace.

In a modern office building
A wheelchair user with upper body strength can use all facilities in a modern office without assistance.
A person with double incontinence can make provisions for their own care.
A person with certain ranges of cerebral palsy can be provided with aids to assist and support.
A person who is blind can be provided with an supportive and assistive environment.
A person with a mental age of 6 could be supported amd supervised at simple tasks, in cleaning and delivering mail
A person who is wheelchair bound, blind, with cerebral palsy and doubly incontinent and a mental age of 6 is an employer of full time carers

Perhaps you can persuade all employers to employ registered disabled people to fulfil the complete Disability Employment Quota or pay the wages into a fund to support the social 'employment' of disabled people e.g. invested in the provision of day centres and residential centres where severely disabled people can work.

I do not disparage your experience and issues as a person disabled by a stroke, but would advise you to visit a MenCap or Sense event and talk to the members and their carers so that you can work for their rights as well.

I get what you are saying, but the fact is NMW is just that a minimum wage to everybody there are no exclusions and why Cameron gave Freud a ticking off and why Freud withdrew his comments.

If employers are not paying this or finding ways to skirt the legislation like starting a company for the disabled person and making them a director then they are breaking the law.

You have made valid points but it changes nothing

[julian]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

We are both reading the same book, but not quite on the same page.

Cameron reacted as a plonkertician and the other was coerced. There words changed nothing.Cameron relies a lot on his experience with his son, but he never had to go to hospital 40 miles away on a bus. Had he lived he would not have gone into the family business.

The only place there was a duty to work was in the USSR where bricklayers and medical doctors worked for the same wages and were allocated accommodation in accordance with their perceived worth. People with profound disabilities were lucky to keep their lives into working age. People were given invented jobs like cleaning the underground, factory orchestras etc. It is so long since we had full employment in the UK, but still we don't support such schemes. The soviets 'lost' many disabled in orphanages and asylums.

What is worrying is that although genetic and congenital disabilities can be identified and addressed propr to conception or before birth, we are potentially introducing more with IVF, intermarriage deliberately between cousins or accidentally by having many children with different partners with whom we have no further contact. Addressing these issues,foetal alcohol syndrome and enforcing vaccination would reduce the unemployable through birth defects, and enabling more provisions to be made for those being struck down by accident, incident or disease into their working life as well. The whole family suffers when there is a disability within it no matter when or how it occurs and it limits the lives and aspirations of all concerned.

Good luck with your quest. Mine began 50 years ago.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

Cameron reacted as a plonkertician and the other was coerced. There words changed nothing.Cameron relies a lot on his experience with his son, but he never had to go to hospital 40 miles away on a bus. Had he lived he would not have gone into the family business.

The way he uses his Son Bless Him makes my skin crawl

Freud's remarks are the biggest admission to date that the DWP's Work Program has failed disabled people spectacularly.

With Labour lobbing MP's for a VONC in Freud next week I have a feeling this is not the end of the matter either and his comments are still running high on twitter will be interesting to see how that VONC pans out as it will need the support of Clegg and his party and given there comments on this one might think it will be an easy vote to gain for milliband but as we so often see what they say and do are miles apart.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

I guess this is you Julian, fair play to you I get what you are saying but still believe your son should be paid at least NMW and I really do appreciate that by accepting less is a way through an employers door but like I say it should not be that way and employers have a long way to go in opening there eyes and understanding and if I had my own company would give you son a job tomorrow on at least NMW.

It is not your sons disabilities at fault here but the societies we live in and that needs to change.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-...t-supervision/

[colonelsensibl]

Re: Welfare minister apologises for disability pay comments

In the dim and distant past, I won a mock election at a grammar school that closely preceded Harold Wilson's election to PM in 1964. From that day to this, I'm sorry to say that I find it hard to have any association with conservative ideas, such as paying certain disabled people less than the minimum wage. Lord Freud was rightly put down by Cameron. If he hadn't been, the Conservatives would have lost the next General Election. I hope they still do. I appreciate your arguments Julian, but they cannot and do not have resonance in today's society.