Tenancy Agreements

[clueless24]

Hi
Can anyone help with a little guidance please?
My daughter is just about to leave her current home and move into a specially adapted property to meet the needs of my profoundly disabled grandson.
The local authority have asked her to go into the office to sign the tenancy agreement, she asked if the would send a copy of the proposed agreement so she could read it before she signs it and they have refused,saying that, that is why she has to go into the office to sign it so that they can go through everything on that day before she signs it, they wont give her the keys until she does so.
Hereby lays the problem, we have been told by someone in the office that a discussion took place between staff about adding some additional clauses to the agreement in the very small print, those additions are 1)That she will never be able to buy the property (although we understand from our own research that this is common practice if a property has been specifically adapted) and 2) That should my grandson die that the family will no longer have a right to remain in the property, we were only told this because the person thought it was disgusting that they were trying to be so sneaky about it no one has discussed this with the family which really worries us all.
So I guess I am asking can do this legally?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry if I have posted in the wrong place.

[nightwatch]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

no good with tenancy agreements sorry, but some one with more knowledge of them may be along soon xx

[Pixie]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

PlanB's the one you need.

[cymruambyth]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

Send PlanB a message with a link to your thread.

[clueless24]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

Thanks guys I shall wait to hear from plan b.

[PlanB]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

My daughter is just about to leave her current home and move into a specially adapted property to meet the needs of my profoundly disabled grandson.The local authority have asked her to go into the office to sign the tenancy agreement, she asked if the would send a copy of the proposed agreement so she could read it before she signs it and they have refused,saying that, that is why she has to go into the office to sign it so that they can go through everything on that day before she signs it, they wont give her the keys until she does so.

I'm sorry to hear this. Your daughter has enough on her plate without the local authority making things even more difficult for her and her son. Of course she is right to ask to see the tenancy agreement before she signs it because it is a legal contract. She also has the right to seek independent legal advice before signing it and I would strongly recommend that she does that (Shelter will help her). Let me ask you a few questions.

Is this a Council property or a Housing Association property?

Is she currently in a Council property or HA property?

Will anyone else be living in the new property other than her and her son?

Is there anyone else, or has there been anyone else other than her and her son living in the current property?

I ask because I'm concerned about the suggestion that she may not have the right to remain in the property if her son should sadly die. That thought doesn't bear thinking about but at times like these one has to be pragmatic I suppose. Are they really suggesting that she would be evicted (after repossession) of the property in the event of the poor lad's death?

Here is a link to Shelter's advice on succession rights.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_ad...ning_a_tenancy

I'm not too familiar with this area of housing law but it seems that after 1st April 2012 succession rights changed. It's possible (and I genuinely don't know at this stage) that she has succession rights in her current home should her son die, but the council aren't willing to transfer those rights when she moves into her new home. The link says that's the case "unless the tenancy agreement allows for this".

"For council tenancies which started after April 1st 2012 family members, other than spouses, civil partners or cohabiting partners will not be able to succeed to the tenancy – unless the tenancy agreement allows for this."

Could this be the reason why they want to omit it from the tenancy agreement?

If I were in her shoes I wouldn't sign anything without seeing the tenancy agreement and taking (free) independent legal advice on it. What is the time frame for the move?

[PlanB]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

we have been told by someone in the office that a discussion took place between staff about adding some additional clauses to the agreement in the very small print . . we were only told this because the person thought it was disgusting that they were trying to be so sneaky

I love whistle-blowers

[clueless24]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

Hi Plan B
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond and help me.
I shall try and answer your questions as best as I can.
They have been asked to go in and sign the agreement on the 25th July at which point they will collect the keys, the tenancy will start on the 28th July the new house is LA.
They have lived in their current property for 4 years and it is HA and they have an Assured Non Shorthold Tenancy, prior to that they lived in another HA property from 2008 till 2010. when I say they it is my daughter her husband and 3 children.
I shall try and research the shelter information in between the 11 appointments we have this week for the little one. Really fed up with the LA this house has taken nearly 2 years to happen and on top of everything else they are trying to be sneaky. She is going to email them tomorrow and insist on seeing a copy of the agreement we will see how that goes down.
If you need to know anything else feel free to ask, thank you.

[PlanB]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

They have been asked to go in and sign the agreement on the 25th July at which point they will collect the keys, the tenancy will start on the 28th July the new house is LA.
They have lived in their current property for 4 years and it is HA and they have an Assured Non Shorthold Tenancy, prior to that they lived in another HA property from 2008 till 2010. when I say they it is my daughter her husband and 3 children.
I shall try and research the shelter information in between the 11 appointments we have this week for the little one. Really fed up with the LA this house has taken nearly 2 years to happen and on top of everything else they are trying to be sneaky.

Okay we have time to sort this before 28th July. I say "we" because I intend to help you with the research.

The new Council property will be occupied by your daughter, her husband and three children so it's unthinkable (in my perfect world) that the whole family's future security should be jeopardized or compromised because one of her children is disabled. I think "we" need to look at disability discrimination too. There is another Moderator on this site who is more knowledgeable than me on disability issues so I'll ask him to pop into this thread.

May I ask whether your daughter or her husband are employed or in receipt of any benefits or carer's allowance(s)? Believe it or not Legal Aid is still available in some circumstances even if it's only for initial legal advice.

My heart goes out to you and your daughter - she's lucky to have you as her Mum

It's stories like these which make my blood boil.

[clueless24]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

What a lovely thing to say thank you plan b, please refrain from writing anything that will make me cry my emotions are all over the place, keeping kleenex in business at the moment with all the stress and worry. Little Zachary has been so poorly of late we never know what the next day is going to throw at us.
Zachary requires 24 hour care so Dad wasn't able to return to work and baby Ellen arrived 5 months ago so as yet Mum has not returned to work but that is the plan eventually.
They split the day and night between them as Zachary has constant seizures throughout the day and night so someone always has to be awake with him, currently we are upward of a hundred seizures a day on top of the tonic clonic seizures, absence seizures, spasms, and drop attacks. Daddy Paul is named a his carer. They receive DLA higher rate for both care and mobility, child tax credits and income support, housing benefit and council tax is also paid.
The plan is for them to return to work Annie was a care assistant working with young adults with physical, learning and mental disabilities, and Paul worked at a local resource center helping disabled young adults, hopefully one day they will return to work.
Since Zachary was born 3 years ago everything has been such a struggle and we have to fight for everything, we just wanted for the last little piece of the jigsaw to be easy.
We shall continue to fight for whats right.
Many thanks for everything Plan b you are a good person.

[PlanB]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

Since Zachary was born 3 years ago everything has been such a struggle and we have to fight for everything, we just wanted for the last little piece of the jigsaw to be easy.
We shall continue to fight for whats right.

I didn't reply to you last night because I didn't know what to say. Your post was so humbling.

I find it hard to suggest practical suggestions in such a delicate situation.

I think your daughter needs to lay a paper trail which shows she's asked all the right questions and got answers back from the Council. The plan should be to 'set them up for a fall'.

Surely the priority is to get Zachery into his new home where adaptations have been made to ease his way of life on a day-to-day basis.

Maybe work on the principal that the little lad will live for ever and ever so the current callous attitude of the Council to attempt to make his parents' and siblings' life hell in future will not be an issue.

In the meantime we will work towards safeguarding the whole family's future.

[nightwatch]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

can they not sign the contract but put a note by the signature saying signed without time to read it, or something along that line ? only asking

I work taking disabled children to school and see a lot of parents struggle to get basic help and get so annoyed, even more so when I have a person over the road that shields her 20+ year old grandson from the courts as he has "problems"
but he has never worked, unless you call growing and selling drugs a job,but is able to go out and enjoy his life as and when he likes.

if parents of disabled children cannot drive the whole family is a prisoner in the 4 walls that they call home so it should be one that is safe and permanent.

[MrsD]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

i work a lot with councils (in education not housing) but I find day to day that they are completely dumbfounded by their own incredibly stupid and incredibly complicated convoluted systems, rules, practices and general jobpreserving miasma.

most of the council employees I come across, operate the systems but don't actually know how to, if you get my drift. No one is ever encouraged to think for themselves and most don't have the ability because they are trained just to be clones and to do their little bit. most are also terrified of losing their nice wee sinecure. So I would guess that this team of numpties are just terrified of getting this wrong, they have probably never dealt with this kind of situation before and the actual human element will just pass them by as they will be desperate to cover their backsides from all angles. I have seen it so many times, it's classic council employee out of their comfort zone behavior.

That aside, I think you need to cover yourself, wee Zachary will live forever and it will never happen that the family could be tossed out on the street, but no harm in having a nice secure papertrail and a bit of gentle challenging of the more ridiculous conditions. Councils hate bad publicity, they cannot be seen to be in any way unfair or dodgy, and the anti-corruption restraints are enormous. So I would follow PlanB's advice, and no harm in asking if this is the run of the mill council tenant's contract, (look em in the eye with this one) and if it's not, why not?

[PlanB]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

The local authority have asked her to go into the office to sign the tenancy agreement, she asked if the would send a copy of the proposed agreement so she could read it before she signs it and they have refused,saying that, that is why she has to go into the office to sign it so that they can go through everything on that day before she signs it, they wont give her the keys until she does so.

She should send an email to the local authority requesting a copy of the tenancy agreement in advance because she wants to take independent advice before she signs it. She could say that due to her son's need for round-the-clock care she is unable to spend long periods away from him and his home, this means that going into the office for a meeting to go over everything is not practical. She also has a baby of only five months to consider. Tell them that once she's read the tenancy agreement and taken advice on any amendment requests she will come into the office to sign it and collect the keys.

I expect they want to be able to say that she has read and fully understood the contract to safeguard themselves against any future claim by her that they didn't explain it to her fully. A contract is a two-way street between two parties. Both have the right to negotiate what goes in it. She shouldn't be afraid to ask for a clause to be added, removed or amended. They're hardly likely to refuse to give her the property now that it's been adapted just because she raises a query or two before signing on the dotted line.

Looking at it objectively, it may not be as sinister as it appears. The local authority make take the view that if the young lad dies then the property will be needed for another disabled person because it has been specifically adapted for that purpose. That's not an unreasonable long-term plan. However what would be unreasonable is the rest of the family being made homeless as a result. The contract needs to state what will happen if they are asked to move out. Where will they go and who will provide that alternative accommodation? She and her family quite rightly need that certainty.

Once she's got hold of the tenancy agreement she should telephone Shelter's legal helpline on 0808 800 4444 for some general guidance. They will be able to suggest a law clinic near her where she can go to get the tenancy agreement looked over by a free lawyer who has experience in this specialist area of housing law. If you PM me the name of her nearest town I will also see what free legal resources may be available to her.

Remember the backstop is always the court. If the council ever did try to gain possession of the property then she could ask the court to decide what is reasonable.

[clueless24]

Re: Tenancy Agreements

First of all thank you to everyone who has contributed to the tread and the very kind words expressed, the support of the people on this site is amazing.
Well yesterday was spent at the hospital when Zachary had a prolonged seizure and the medazalam failed to work, but he is back home and doing ok.
The email has gone, now we will wait for the response, I have followed the suggestions so will at the least create that paper trail.
Zachary has a condition called Lennox-Gastaut syndrome along with global development delay, he does not walk, talk, feed or communicate and is unlikely ever to do so, as far as life expectancy is concerned we just don't know, we all make the most of every day we have with him he is our little ray of sunshine.
We completely understand that morally if anything were to happen to Zachary of course we would want someone else to have the benefit of the adapted property because it would be the right thing to do.
We are looking at long term and should anything happen to Mum & Dad that his siblings would be able to stay in the property and continue the care of Zachary, this is not a straight forward tenancy and knowing what we know makes it really difficult to trust the LA.
I shall keep you updated on our progress.