Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

[DNW]

A few weeks ago my car was the lucky recipient of a PCN from LPS/Local Parking Security Ltd whilst parked next to a friend in an (unbeknown to me) private car park. For some bizarre reason he didn't receive a PCN although he didn't have a pay & display ticket either.

I followed the 'old rule' of ignoring it as the PCN was for the driver and not the registered keeper and how could they prove that they were one and the same person, but they've now sent me a Notice to Keeper which states that after 28 days of the charge being unpaid, they can recover the costs of this through the registered keeper. They quote 'schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

It's years since I received a PCN - are people in general still ignoring them? Or appealing? Or just paying?

[PlanB]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

PM Mystery1 asap. He's brilliant at sorting these

I've sent him a PM on your behalf

[diddlydee]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

Certainly from what I've read up on recently, the advice now is not to ignore them, due to changes in the law which put the responsibility on the owner/keeper unless they provide information to the contrary (name the driver).

This doesn't mean you necessarily have to pay any "fine" but that you do need to deal with it.

I hope you get a satisfactory conclusion with assistance from Mystery1

[mystery1]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

I'd appeal.


Dear Sirs,

I, as registered keeper, wish to invoke your appeals procedure. The driver did not see any signs. In any event your charges are penal in nature and not a genuine pre estimate of loss.

I am under no statutory obligation to name the driver and will not do so.

If you reject my appeal please supply a popla code.

Yours etc








If they supply a popla code please return and i'll sort out a popla appeal for you.


M1

[DNW]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

Brilliant, thanks M1 I'll get a letter sent off to them

[mystery1]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

Letter ? You must be a Royal mail shareholder.

http://www.localparkingsecurity.co.u...tices-appeals/

appeals@localparkingsecurity.co.uk

M1

[DNW]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

Haha, I'm so used to sending letters mostly for wanting a proof of delivery for record keeping. Email it is then

[DNW]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

LPS have replied quite quickly saying that they have considered and rejected my appeal and they've supplied me with a POPLA verification code and a part completed appeal claim form,

What next please M1?

[mystery1]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

I wish to appeal this parking charge on the following grounds.
















1. The charges are penalties and not a contractual charge, breach of contract or trespass. They are not a genuine pre estimate of loss either.








2. In order to form a contract the signs need to be clear so that they must be seen by an average person. They were not. There was no breach of contract.








3. Local Parking Security Ltd (LPS) do not hold sufficient interest in the land to offer a motorist a contract to park. They have no locus standi.








4. LPS have failed to adhere to the BPA code of practice.








5. Unreliable, unsynchronised and non-compliant ANPR system.








1.The charges are penalties.


The charges are represented as a Trespass. Whilst it is disputed that a contract was entered into (see point 2) according to the BPA code "If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a act of trespass, this charge must be proportionate and commercially justifiable. We would not expect this amount to be more than £100. If the charge is more than this, operators must be able to justify the amount in advance"


£100 is clearly not proportionate to a stay in a car park in which the vehicle was entitled to be in but did not pay the correct tariff. Neither is it commercially justified because it would make no sense. The cost of a overstay being significantly higher than if the correct tariff is paid If you allow trespass when it suits you it's not trespass. As this is clearly a trespass scenario, although not described as such, the charges in law need to be a genuine pre estimate of loss. If it is breach of contract the amount due would be that of a missing payment. Either way the charge is a penalty.


I require LPS to submit a full breakdown of how these losses are calculated in this particular car park and for this particular ‘contravention’. LPS cannot lawfully include their operational day to day running costs (e.g. provision of signs, ANPR and parking enforcement) in any ‘loss’ claimed. Not only are those costs tax deductible, but were no breaches to occur in that car park, the cost of parking 'enforcement ' would still remain the same.


According to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations, parking charges for breach on private land must not exceed the cost to the landowner during the time the motorist is parked there. As the landowner imposes no parking fee for the area in question, there is only the limited loss to whoever it is due. The Office of Fair Trading has stated that ''a ‘parking charge’ is not automatically recoverable simply because it is stated to be a parking charge, as it cannot be used to state a loss where none exists.''


In Parking Eye v Beavis it was found that the charges were penalties although specific to that car park they were commercially Justifiable which clearly can't be in this case as the commercial justification is for the tariff charge per hour. In Beavis the car park was free whereas this is apparently a pay and display.




2. Unclear and non-compliant signage, forming no contract with drivers.


I require signage evidence in the form of a site map and dated photos of the signs at the time of the parking event. I would contend that the signs (wording, position and clarity) fail to properly inform the driver of the terms and any consequences for breach, as in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Martin Cutts, 2011. As such, the signs were not so prominent that they 'must' have been seen by the driver - who would never have agreed to pay £100 in a free car park - and therefore I contend the elements of a contract were conspicuous by their absence. If it is dark it is not good enough for signs just to be present, they must be able to be seen.




3.. Contract with landowner - no locus standi
LPS do not own nor have any interest or assignment of title of the land in question. As such, I do not believe that LPS has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park, or indeed to allege a breach of contract. Accordingly, I require sight of a full copy of the actual contemporaneous, signed and dated site agreement/contract with the landowner (and not just a signed slip of paper saying that it exists). Some parking companies have provided “witness statements” instead of the relevant contract. There is no proof whatsoever that the alleged signatory has ever seen the relevant contract, or, indeed is even an employee of the landowner. Nor would a witness statement show whether there is a payment made from either party within the agreement/contract which would affect any 'loss' calculations. Nor would it show whether the contract includes the necessary authority, required by the BPA CoP, to specifically allow LPS to pursue these charges in their own name as creditor in the Courts, and to grant them the standing/assignment of title to make contracts with drivers.




In POPLA case reference 1771073004, POPLA ruled that a witness statement was 'not valid evidence'. This witness statement concerned evidence which could have been produced but was not. So if the operator produces a witness statement mentioning the contract, but does not produce the actual un-redacted contract document, then POPLA should be consistent and rule any such statement invalid.




So I require the unredacted contract for all these stated reasons as I contend the Operator's authority is limited to that of a mere parking agent. I believe it is merely a standard business agreement between LPS and their client, which is true of any such business model. This cannot impact upon, nor create a contract with, any driver, as was found in case no. 3JD00517 ParkingEye v Clarke 19th December 2013 (Transcript linked): http://nebula.wsimg.com/71a4eb1b5de2...essKeyId=4CB8F 2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1




In that case the Judge found that, as the Operator did not own any title in the car park: 'The decision to determine whether it is damages for breach...or a penalty...is really not for these Claimants but...for the owners. We have a rather bizarre situation where the Claimants make no money apparently from those who comply with the terms...and make their profit from those who are in breach of their contract. Well that cannot be right, that is nonsense. So I am satisfied that...the Claimants are the wrong Claimants. They have not satisfied this court that they have suffered any loss...if anything, they make a profit from the breach.'


I challenge this Operator to rebut my assertion that their business model is the same 'nonsense', and is unenforceable. LPS cannot build their whole business model around profiting from those they consider to be in breach of a sign, on land where they have no locus standi, and then try to paint that profit as a perpetual loss.


I refer the Adjudicator to the recent Appeal Court decision in the case of Vehicle Control Services (VCS) v HMRC ( EWCA Civ 186 [2013]): The principal issue in this case was to determine the actual nature of Private Parking Charges.


It was stated that, "If those charges are consideration for a supply of goods or services, they will be subject to VAT. If, on the other hand, they are damages they will not be."


The ruling of the Court stated, "I would hold, therefore, that the monies that VCS collected from motorists by enforcement of parking charges were not consideration moving from the landowner in return for the supply of parking services."


In other words, they are not, as the Operator asserts, a contractual term. If they were a contractual term, the Operator would have to provide a VAT invoice, to provide a means of payment at the point of supply, and to account to HMRC for the VAT element of the charge. The Appellant asserts that these requirements have not been met. It must therefore be concluded that the Operator's charges are in fact damages, or penalties, for which the Operator must demonstrate his actual, or pre-estimated losses, as set out above.




4. Failure to adhere to the BPA code of practice.


The signs do not meet the minimum requirements in part 18. They were not clear and intelligible as required.


5. ANPR ACCURACY




This Operator is obliged to ensure their ANPR equipment is maintained as described in paragraph 21.3 of the British Parking Association's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice. I require the Operator to present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted,calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images.This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that this Operator must produce evidence in response to these points and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss by the Operator in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence form the Operator was 'fundamentally flawed' as the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.




So, in addition to showing their maintenance records, I require the Operator in this case to show evidence to rebut this point: I suggest that in the case of my vehicle being in this car park, a local camera took the image but a remote server added the time stamp. As the two are disconnected by the internet and do not have a common "time synchronisation system", there is no proof that the time stamp added is actually the exact time of the image. The operator appears to use WIFI which introduces a delay through buffering, so "live" is not really "live". Hence without a synchronised time stamp there is no evidence that the image is ever time stamped with an accurate time. Therefore I contend that this ANPR "evidence" from this Operator in this car park is just as unreliable as the ParkingEye system and I put this Operator to strict proof to the contrary.




M1

[DNW]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

That's brilliant thanks M1

While not wanting to question it, there's a couple of points that I'd like to ask about including as they may not apply in the case of my PCN:

1) The evidence they have came from a man in a van taking a photo on his camera phone of my ticket-less dash/windows (he was doing this as I arrived back at the car), I'm not sure that there are any on-site cameras so would I need to leave out that section or include it anyway?

2) The 'fine' they're inviting me to pay is £85 - should I change the amount of point (1) to £85?

[mystery1]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

[QUOTE1)] The evidence they have came from a man in a van taking a photo on his camera phone of my ticket-less dash/windows (he was doing this as I arrived back at the car), I'm not sure that there are any on-site cameras so would I need to leave out that section or include it anyway?

[/QUOTE]

Take it out.

2) The 'fine' they're inviting me to pay is £85 - should I change the amount of point (1) to £85?

Yes.

M1

[DNW]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

Just had some great news via email...

The Assessor has considered the evidence of both parties and has determined that the appeal be allowed.

The Assessor’s reasons are as set out.

The Operator should now cancel the parking charge notice forthwith.

Reasons for the Assessor’s Determination

It is the Operator’s case that their Terms and Conditions of parking (“the Terms”) are clearly displayed throughout the above named site. They submit that the Appellant breached the Terms by failing to display a ticket and therefore is liable to pay the parking charge.

The Appellant raises several grounds of appeal but it is only necessary for the purposes of this appeal to deal with one. This is the submission that the parking
charge does not reflect a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Where such a submission is made, there is a burden on the Operator, and not the driver, to provide a genuine pre-estimate of loss which demonstrates how they calculated the parking charge amount. It does not need to be particularly detailed or amount to exactly the charge amount because it is simply an estimate. However, one must be provided. I do not find that the pre-estimate provided by the Operator establishes that the charge represents a genuine pre-estimate of the Operator’s loss. This is for the following reasons;

i. Based upon the Operator description, the ‘Appeals Staff’ costs appear to contain duplication. This is because they are said to include the cost of managers who examine and employ ‘quality control’ in relation to an appeal reply. This appears to be a check on work already completed by other members of staff and therefore is a duplication of costs. I will disregard the these costs from the total of the pre-estimate;

ii. Consequently, I find that the pre-estimate amounts to £45.

Therefore, I find that the amount of the pre-estimate does not substantially amount to the £85 charge issued and so it does not constitute a genuine pre-estimate of the Operator’s losses in this case. Therefore, I find that the charge is not enforceable in this case.

Thank you M1!

[IF]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

Brilliant News, well done DNW and to M1 too

[PlanB]

Re: Private Co - Parking Charge Notice & Notice to Keeper

That's excellent news

Well done to M1 who stops these cowboys on almost a daily basis I used his template letter to get shot of one for my daughter and another one for her bloke (Euro Car Parks).

It's the hospital car parks that annoy me most. Praying on the sick and their relatives is, well, just sick.