Greymatter's ue Diary

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Many thanks Niddy and I2D,you certainly install such confidence.
I will look forward to reading and learning from Niddy's reply(when your back!)
GM

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

I'll ask Paul to comment. He knows best

[Paul.]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Quote:
Originally Posted by greymatter
Hi Niddy
I would like some advice on the following:

Natwest CC Bal £9K+ Taken out about 1980??
Defaulted July 2003
Account Termination August 2003
Still paying agreed token monthly payment( very little)
However they always keep requesting a review every 3-6 months,I never increase my monthly amount,which they accept.
As they have not placed this with a collecting agency ,which surprises me,does this mean they have the agreement?I am concerned that a CCA request for my account might just awaken a monster here.
There's no way could I afford to pay the £9k.
Whats your advice here Niddy
Thanks
GM
Key:sent
received
other information
26/03/2012 Reg letter sent this morning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Never-In-Doubt
send for the CCA - why are you paying old accounts from c2000

Seriously, get the CCA asap then lets take a peek before doing anything

17/04/2012 Still have not received CCA. Shall I take this as U/E at this moment .I assume there is no need to chase them?
Thanks
GM





23/05/2012 Received letter from NatWest acknowledging my CCA request.They have sent a copy of current terms and conditions as they say I took this card out in 1980 and that section 78 was brought into force on 19th May 1985.Schedule 3 of the 1974 act states that S.78 applies to an agreement made after 1985 onwards where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement.They go on to point out that agreements made before 19 th May 1985 it is sufficient to supply a copy of the current terms that acts as a true copy.
They go on to say that the agreement is enforceable.

Are they right and am I stuffed,I really am worried about this.
I cannot remember having the card back in 1980 I really thought it was about 2000.
Please advise as to what my next step is.
Thanks

GM

They are correct about the date, indeed, the regulations did not have effect until 1985, but the point is it really does turn on when you took the card out.

have you checked your credit file recently? if so what date did it give on there for the account opening?

[Paul.]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

I assume in 1980 you would have been over 18 and thus eligible for credit?

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Hi Paul
I have checked my credit file but nothing showing.I know I received a DN 23/07/2003.
My wife recalls my having an Access card in 1980.
Yes I am an 'old git' wish i were 18!!
Does it look grim for me Paul?
BC adopted a different stance for an equally old BC.
Thanks
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Paul/Niddy
Its strange that the 1974 CCA Act makes a change in 1983 where OC/DCA can't get away with no tc's and no siggy.Then in 2007 threy change again (appears almost the same as the pre 1983 situation),cobble up some latest docs and say you did sign,but its lost,tough.
No sec 127 applying either?
If I am stuffed whats the next move?Please dont say 'pay it all'
This is a real pisser !!!
GM

[Paul.]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Paul/Niddy
Its strange that the 1974 CCA Act makes a change in 1983 where OC/DCA can't get away with no tc's and no siggy.Then in 2007 threy change again (appears almost the same as the pre 1983 situation),cobble up some latest docs and say you did sign,but its lost,tough.
No sec 127 applying either?
If I am stuffed whats the next move?Please dont say 'pay it all'
This is a real pisser !!!
GM

The problem is that the sanction is for the agreement not containig the prescribed terms or being signed by the debtor

The difficulty of course is that the prescribed terms were made by the secretary of state (then Alexander Fisher) and the prescribed terms were set out in shcedule 6 of the regulations. Those regs were not in force in 1980.

So you can see the problem cant you.

Also your other hurdle is the Consumer Credit Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents Regulations 1983 (regulation 9) which states

9 Copies of old agreements and security instruments where the agreement or security instrument has been lost etc


Any copy of an executed agreement made before 19th May 1985 or of a security instrument relating to security provided
before that date which is given to the debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act on or after that date may
comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement or security as the case may be insofar as they
are known to the creditor or owner where, due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, the creditor or
owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement or security instrument or any copy thereof.

All these consumer credit cases turn on the parties evidence, there are tonnes of cases that say the burden is on the debtor to state the state of play with regards to the agreement, so id say it is down to you to say when you took the credit card out, and if you cant remember then i would say then you are in difficulty

The difficulty i have is you are saying you took the card out in 2000 and the bank says no no it was 1980, now what you need to do is work out how there is such a wide gap

what was the "access card" you had? what type of card was it? was it upgraded like happened in Mayhew? was the access card a bank card? or was it a credit card? if you cant answer this then id say paying them would be close to top of the list of advice

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Access was Natwest (and shared card centre in Southends) brainchild. This was around the 80's IIR....

In fact Access was invented in 1972 and was a joint venture between Natwest, Midland, Lloyds & RBS (cue the Joint Credit Card Company (JCCC) /Southend-on-Sea). The same group invented and ran Switch.



Anyway, I digress....

As he says he had an Access card this confirms it was definitely right as Access was the main card in the 80's (other than Barclaycard and Amex Green)!

[PlanB]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Wikipedia says Access was around until 1996 when it merged with MasterCard so there could still be an eleven year window for GM to have opened the account and be covered by the appropriate legislation

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Wikipedia says Access was around until 1996 when it merged with MasterCard so there could still be an eleven year window for GM to have opened the account and be covered by the appropriate legislation

And they came with 5 year expiry dates so if you had one in 1996 you'd still have it in 2001. I had an access card in 2000, by Midland/HSBC as it was then....

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Hi Paul
It was an access ,which is a bog standard credit card and it was replaced(in their latest letter they enclosed a letter(undated) stating that they enclose a replacement card).I never lost a card so it must be a date expired replacement.
The odd thing about this undated letter is that the telephone numbers are 0870 were these around in 1980?
It just states that the card was opened in April 1980.
It mentions that my advance limit is 50% of my credit limit(This is news to me,so is this telling me that its been upgraded since the replacement?
So what do you reckon here,seems all a bit odd to me?
GM

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

It was an access ,which is a bog standard credit card

Actually, no it wasn't. Access and Mastercard worked in totally different ways. They would have different terms as well, totally different as Access was nothing like Mastercard/Eurocard per se....

Anyway, I'll leave this to Paul as he'll know more but deffo consider the fact that access terms were entirely different to typical mastercard terms, the repayment was also different as you paid a set 3/6/9% IIR....

Interesting, this individual worked there from 72-96 which is about right (--> Access Joint Credit Card Company - Southend - Who Remembers Me )

[PlanB]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Quote:
Originally Posted by greymatter
Natwest CC Bal £9K+ Taken out about 1980??
Defaulted July 2003
Account Termination August 2003


23/05/2012 Received letter from NatWest acknowledging my CCA request.They have sent a copy of current terms and conditions as they say I took this card out in 1980 and that section 78 was brought into force on 19th May 1985.Schedule 3 of the 1974 act states that S.78 applies to an agreement made after 1985 onwards where the agreement would have been a regulated agreement.They go on to point out that agreements made before 19 th May 1985 it is sufficient to supply a copy of the current terms that acts as a true copy.
They go on to say that the agreement is enforceable.

If NatWest bank hasn't produced a CCA or even a recon of an agreement, what evidence are they relying on when they claim the account was opened in 1980

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Thanks Niddy/Paul
Actually you are right cos my access card did become Mastercard.
Is there a glimmer of hope? How long can I wait until I need to reply as I don't want them to go legal?
GM

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

stop stressing, we'll get there - no rush, just stay calm and think back - anything is helpful. Do you have any old terms from access, in an old box in back of attick/loft - anything?