P800 Tax Calculation help

[SXGuy]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

True, you know, years ago, you could ring HMRC speak to someone, explain the situation, deal with the matter, have it ressolved, say no more.

These days, you have to do this, that, something else, wait, wait more, get a reply you dont agree with, appeal to that, wait, wait more, get the answer you hoped for, or not lol.

It is compartmentalised so much so, that you lack the ability to put a proper case forward, and they rely on this in my opinion.

For example, we used to be able to ring, speak to an inspector, explain a situation, he would amend it from his end while on the phone, not anymore.

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Not heard from her today, so whether or not she did get to ring and ask if she will be getting the cheque from the one of them??

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Right ok, she popped in her letter and not happy.
Nothing about the cheque, because the letter states the overpayment minusing the amount of what she would have had if no underpayment.

.................................................. ..................................

Thank you for your letter dated 19 November 2012 asking us not to collect £248.91 for the tax year 2010-11.
I am sorry that you feel we have not dealt with your tax record in a timely manner.

Decision:
We have considered your case under the Extra Statutory Concession (ESC)A19 which allows us not to collect tax in certain cases. Full details of ESCA19 are on the leaflet included with this letter and website...........

We are sorry but ESC does not apply in your case and the tax is still due.

Reasons for decision:
This is because we have no record of any information sent by you or third party which we failed to act on. If you think we have overlooked information that has been sent to us, please let us know.

What information was provided
When it was sent to us
Who sent it

Please note that the end of the year and tax details sent to us by your employer is not classed as information for purposes of ESC A19.

2010-11
Please note that your records show that when you commenced employment with (recent employer) we received an online form which is used by new employer where the P45 from previous employer is not available. The form P4 requests that one of the three statements are signed, and depending on which statement is signed a correct tax code is used by the employer. The original tax code of 647L week 1 basis operated by the employer suggests that you signed statement B as follows:

B: This is my only job since last April 6, I have had another job, or received taxable jobseekers allowance, employment support allowance or taxable incapacity benefit. I do not receive a State or Occupational pension scheme.

This would mean that you paid the correct amount of tax, but only from the day your employer used the tax code until 5 April 2011.

The end of year return form P14 submitted by (recent employer) shows that they used 647L cumulative without the previous pay and tax from Previous employer, so in affect you received two separate personal allowances.

In certain circumstances we can ask the employer (or pension provider) to pay an underpayment of tax if it results from their error. I will write to employer for their explanation. I will write to you again when I have concluded my enquiries.

I am afraid these enquries can take some time to complete and it is our practice to continue collecting the underpayment while our enquiries are ongoing.

I can however now spread the collection of the underpayment over 2 years starting on 6 April 2013.

Our records are not linked to the Tax credits system, and would not be reviewed as part of your claim.

.................................................. .......

With that, there is an explanation "if you do not agree with the decision" with a form to complete "I do not agree with your decision to refuse my claim under ESC A19" and to give additional information below.

.................................................. ....................................

Right ok, I have not actually seen the letter she originally sent them, but she did say that she does not understand where ESC A19 has come into it, when she believes its down to the emloyer??

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Just spoken on phone and she said when she spoken to employer, they confirmed they DID send off the copy of the P45 employer copy to HMRC and they also confirmed they have proof it was sent if the HMRC want to get in touch.
Luckily she gets on well with the team and they did say the HMRC are welcome by all means to get in touch, but they did receive the information, where they obviously have stated on the letter as shown above they have no records.......hmmm

[SXGuy]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Right ok couple of things.

ESC A19 i believe is the reasons which someone does not have to pay an underpayment, for example, if HMRC notices it 6 years later, you could argue they should have spotted it sooner.

HMRC are saying that a) they never received a P45 and a P46 was submitted instead

b) Even though your friend was taxed at 647L X (month 1 week 1) the P14 at the end of the year, submitted by her employer should she was taxed at 647L Cumlative.

Now, this is quite odd since, the payments made by the employer each month to HMRC wouldnt tally with the final P14 figures if this was the case.

The employer would appear to HMRC as either overpaying or underpaying the tax due.

Since its an underpayment it clearly shows the latter being correct.

Now what HMRC have said if you look closely is this.

In certain circumstances we can ask the employer (or pension provider) to pay an underpayment of tax if it results from their error. I will write to employer for their explanation. I will write to you again when I have concluded my enquiries.

I am afraid these enquries can take some time to complete and it is our practice to continue collecting the underpayment while our enquiries are ongoing.

I can however now spread the collection of the underpayment over 2 years starting on 6 April 2013.

Our records are not linked to the Tax credits system, and would not be reviewed as part of your claim.

So they are writing to the employer to see if it was there error and if so, they should pay the underpayment.

If they find that to be the case, your friend will have the extra deductions refunded to her.

Plus they have agreed to spread it over 2 years which i think is pretty fair to be honest.

Your friend should try to recall if she ever signed a P46 declaration, i bet she didnt, they prob filled it in and submitted it online.

Secondly, your friend should maybe reply to HMRC's letter and thank them, say please note, i never signed a P46 and since the employer has stated on the P14 i was tax cumlative when infact i was taxed emergency, can only strengthen the fact that its the employers error thus should pay the underpayment.

Something along those lines.

[cymruambyth]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Your friend needs 2 reviews followed by 2 complaints and then she can go to the adjudicator.v

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Right ok couple of things.

ESC A19 i believe is the reasons which someone does not have to pay an underpayment, for example, if HMRC notices it 6 years later, you could argue they should have spotted it sooner.

HMRC are saying that a) they never received a P45 and a P46 was submitted instead

b) Even though your friend was taxed at 647L X (month 1 week 1) the P14 at the end of the year, submitted by her employer should she was taxed at 647L Cumlative.

Now, this is quite odd since, the payments made by the employer each month to HMRC wouldnt tally with the final P14 figures if this was the case.

The employer would appear to HMRC as either overpaying or underpaying the tax due.

Since its an underpayment it clearly shows the latter being correct.

Now what HMRC have said if you look closely is this.



So they are writing to the employer to see if it was there error and if so, they should pay the underpayment.

If they find that to be the case, your friend will have the extra deductions refunded to her.

Plus they have agreed to spread it over 2 years which i think is pretty fair to be honest.

Your friend should try to recall if she ever signed a P46 declaration, i bet she didnt, they prob filled it in and submitted it online.

Secondly, your friend should maybe reply to HMRC's letter and thank them, say please note, i never signed a P46 and since the employer has stated on the P14 i was tax cumlative when infact i was taxed emergency, can only strengthen the fact that its the employers error thus should pay the underpayment.

Something along those lines.

Fab thank you!

I shall speak to her this afternoon and ask about the P46.
Could she ask for a copy of the details of when it was supposedly sent to the HMRC?
Both the P46 if this was done of course, and P45 perhaps? (from the employer)?

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Fab thank you!

I shall speak to her this afternoon and ask about the P46.
Could she ask for a copy of the details of when it was supposedly sent to the HMRC?
Both the P46 if this was done of course, and P45 perhaps? (from the employer)?

If this does resolve, I expect them the repayment would therefore be cancelled on her end??

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

Your friend needs 2 reviews followed by 2 complaints and then she can go to the adjudicator.v

Cheers Cym.
There is a form attached at the back if she does agree to complete with the information, so I take it, that is the one?? x

[cymruambyth]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

You can phone or write and say that you do not agree with the decision, with arguments and ask for it to be reviewed. When this is rejected you ask for a higher review with the same information etc. Then you make a complaint about their decision an treatment of you and make a complaint about the complaint!

She needs to quote te esc 19 and say that as a tax payer knowing that all the information had been passed on to her employers and then on to tax man believed that the code was correct. If codes have changed this adds to the argument, also the fact that she has copies of all communications and can supply them to inland revenue if it would help them!

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

You can phone or write and say that you do not agree with the decision, with arguments and ask for it to be reviewed. When this is rejected you ask for a higher review with the same information etc. Then you make a complaint about their decision an treatment of you and make a complaint about the complaint!

She needs to quote te esc 19 and say that as a tax payer knowing that all the information had been passed on to her eloyers and then on to tax man believed that the code was correct. If codes have changed this adds to the argument, also the fact that she has copies of all communications and can supply them to inland revenue if it would help them!

Brill thank you Cym. x

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

As said in an earlier post, she works as an agency worker, but its long term and full time.

Below, I think I posted here a little time ago as well about the benefits which would therefore pay less tax.......

Write up here from her recruitment agency.......

Under the scheme your net 'take home' pay is increased. This is achieved by you agreeing to give up an element of your gross taxable pay in return for tax free allowances relating to the travel and subsistence expenses you incur in travelling and undertaking work at a series of temporary workplaces, providing the assignments you undertake are not expected to last for the whole of your employment with us or for a period of two years or more.

"I dont think the above travel scheme would apply when coming to think of it, because the issue as we know is about the information of P45 of not receiving the information"

I have spoken to her and mentioned all the info as above, although I believe she has broken up for xmas now, but i said maybe the actual recruitment agency dept wiill be open Monday eve for a short time.

[SXGuy]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

However she decides to respond, she needs to make sure she didnt sign a P46, and explain to HMRC this was filled and filed on her behalf without her knowledge, because as far as she was aware, her new employer had her P45.

The P46 that was submitted is correct if they had no P45, but the fact is they did have one, and didnt use it.

I dont see any point in asking for a copy of the P46, as if its submitted online there wouldnt be a signature anyway, its simply the bit of paper she would sign and hand back that would.

Just make sure she drums in to them that she didnt sign a P46, was never asked about her employment status, and had given the P45 to her new employer to use from the start.

Being that her new employer made incorrect deductions and ignored the correct figures, tax code to use, its an error of their part and should be paid by them.

[di30]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

However she decides to respond, she needs to make sure she didnt sign a P46, and explain to HMRC this was filled and filed on her behalf without her knowledge, because as far as she was aware, her new employer had her P45.

The P46 that was submitted is correct if they had no P45, but the fact is they did have one, and didnt use it.

I dont see any point in asking for a copy of the P46, as if its submitted online there wouldnt be a signature anyway, its simply the bit of paper she would sign and hand back that would.

Just make sure she drums in to them that she didnt sign a P46, was never asked about her employment status, and had given the P45 to her new employer to use from the start.

Being that her new employer made incorrect deductions and ignored the correct figures, tax code to use, its an error of their part and should be paid by them.

Thank you SxGuy

Yes that's the point.
I note though their letter says signed, so wouldnt a signature have been required on the P46?

So what she does need to know really, as the HMRC state they have no record of any information, she needs to find out what information was provided, dates and who sent it.

I take it that would have to be the P45, because what other information could she provide to prove it was or supposed to have been dealt by the employer?
They already state that the end of year and tax details sent to them by employer is not classed as information for the purposes of ESC A19.

Cheers.

[SXGuy]

Re: P800 Tax Calculation help

ok, forget for a moment what the employer done on the year end submission of a P14.

The fact is, she gave him a P45, he filled out a P46 and submitted the information, this has been confirmed by HMRC in their letter.

So, the employer is either lying, or HMRC are mistaken. Sounds to me like one of them are trying to accuse the other.

But, we can use HMRC's argument against them to recover the tax from the employer, let the employer argue it with HMRC

If the employer did not request your friend sign a P46 then the employer is responsible for the loss in tax. Its as simple as that.

HMRC can decide the employer is not at fault if their believe he made a "genuine Error or mistake" so we need to drum it home to HMRC that this wasnt possible.

If i remember rightly, she has an email from her employer stating the date the P45 was submitted, you now have evidence from HMRC a P46 was submitted instead.

She needs to tell HMRC, i gave my employer a P45, ive now discovered from your letter, he submitted a P46, for which i was never asked to complete nor sign.

Because a P46 was submitted instead of my P45 part 3, the employer is liable for the underpayment of tax.