Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

[PlanB]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Just wishing you and your son the best of luck with your Tribunal hearing tomorrow.

The Judge and the panel will have read all the paperwork before the hearing starts and probably made up their mind on the outcome, so they'll be looking to clarify a few things with questions to both sides.

I've never been to a child maintenance tribunal but I have been to other types and the only advice I can give is tell your son to show massive respect for the Judge(s) because they hold all the cards. Don't correct them if something isn't right simply say "I may not have explained that very well, what I actually meant was . . . ". Never tell a Judge they've got something wrong.

Listen carefully to everything the Judge says because sometimes they're dropping hints or sending out a signal as to which way they're thinking. Be prepared to change your mind if you think the Judge has made a valid point. Remember they are capable of being objective whereas you're not. Flatter the Judge with "I never thought to see it that way . . . ".

Things will be said by the other party which will wind you up rotten but you must remain calm. Say something like "I can see why she would think that but in reality the caravan is owned by my mum and I'm paying for another child which puts a strain on my budget but I am doing my best and I'm saddened that she can't see it that way . . . ". That sort of thing.

Finally, you can always appeal a Tribunal's decision

[Pixie]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Good luck tomorrow...good "words of wisdom" from PlanB

[Sapphire]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Great advice, and to add to the above, make sure your son turns out very, very smart, ie: Suit and tie if possible, it shows respect for the court and the Judge, there is nothing more antagonising to a Judge/Magistrate when you get someone up in front of you looking like they don't give a monkeys about themselves or where they are and I guarantee it helps with the decision.

[Enforcer]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Went to tribunal today. Other party had advocate from mental health team, claiming DLA for depression, also solicitor for CSA. Judge is issuing directions notice for next hearing as mother of child no 3 has appealed against refusal by CSA of variation order. CSA will now have to investigate again. Cannot for the life of me find out where son is hiding his gold plated Rolls Royce or which bank account the odd few million are hidden in. He has no undeclared assets.

[PlanB]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Okay, so you got a postponement of the final hearing (no Decision today) and the Judge will issue new Directions (homework for both parties). Was there any interim decision on who should pay what to whom and how much while the saga continues?

Did the Judge narrow down the issues so you at least know what is/isn't in dispute from now on?

I hope there were things said at today's hearing which could make Mum 3 and her legal team reconsider their position and maybe make an effort to strike a deal with your son.

I know you think Mum 3 is a greedy cow, but if this is her first baby (is he?) and she is genuinely suffering from depression (hence on benefits with a Mental Health Advocate for the hearing) maybe your son should cut her some slack because what comes across as greed could in reality be anger and resentment at being left to bring up your son's baby all by herself. I am not being judgemental but I do know what it's like to be a woman with a baby and no support from the father. I was a right cow all through my divorce and child maintenance proceedings

[Enforcer]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Mum no 3 has argued that this was my son's business, CSA submission, son was a self employed partner from 10th March 2003. She is still working for a charity advising on benefits for drug addicts and people released from prison, so not that depressed. She asked the Judge why she was not getting the arrears she deserved, CSA lady advised that no enforcement action could be taken whilst she was disputing the variation decision. I advised that we had paid, CSA lady said she needs to contact Birkenhead. I spoke to the judge regarding a new submission, she was disputing that my wife paid the ground rent and would not accept a photocopy of cheque stub, I offered her a copy of wife' bank statement to prove case, she refused it! What more can I do?

[Inca]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Mum 3 obviously has tangible MH issues in whatever shape or form they manifest.
I can disabuse you of the notion that people diagnosed with depression cannot hold down jobs,they can, and in some cases go on to have high flying careers.
She is obviously receiving treatment for it hence having an MH advocate there yesterday.
As for DLA/PIP..I'm sure many on here will agree,it's notoriously hard to claim (especially now it's transitioning to PIP) so her case (and evidence) must have been strong to have been awarded it. It's a not a 'means tested benefit' so won't be included in any calculations.

do the triumvirate of partners get the same wage from the business. and do you all have exactly the same amount of shares.an exact 3 way split?

The cheque for the caravan...who was it made out to?
It's possible that the Judge saw transaction as a 'dispersal of assets'.

Were you told how much to pay to Mum 3 until new Tribunal date?

I personally think this is all about investigating and proving your sons assets (or lack thereof) and the 13k wage for a 35 yrold man part owning his own company just doesn't sound right,so they will investigate it (I'm not saying it's not true,but they obviously believe he has more than he's letting on)

Time and Technology have made long drawn out maintenance and custody hearings a thing of the past....If the investigating officers want a look at bank statements etc etc and it's for valid reasons it's easily done by warrants etc

I'm sorry it wasn't resolved yesterday

[Enforcer]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Mum no 3 seemed to me to exceptionally clever in the way she handled her side, she has an A4 notepad detailing every single phone call, times dates and who she spoke to. Team leaders line managers etc. Certain pages marked with coloured stickers, everything filed and in order. She didn't need an advocate, would have run rings around her and CSA solicitor. Seems very focused on money.
Cheque was made out to the caravan park.
All partners are entitled to an equal share of profits, however our accountant has always done tax returns to maximise tax allowances for the partners, I explained to the Judge that in the relevant tax year although sons declared earnings were £29,000 he did not actually earn that amount. CSA lady says they have to work on HMRC figures. We were not told how much to pay her, I will now work on CSA figure of £35.00 a week.
I really hope that they ask for Bank Statements and accounts, this will prove my point.

[Sapphire]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Hi Enforcer, I think that mum number 3 is one very clever cookie and no matter what you try she has basically got you tied up, no matter how you try to dress it up ie: copies of bank statements and so on, the CSA or whatever they are called nowadays will take the figures from the HMRC, your accountant might be clever adjusting the figures to suit where tax is concerned but this time its not tax is the CSA and a totally different set of rules.

[Inca]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

What the Mum3 has done is what all people should do when facing a court/tribunal.....she collected and collated her evidence.
Women are better than MI5 when they need to be.;lol

Of course it's all about the money,,what else is there? She wants what she believes is a fair bite of the cherry to help support her child,and come hell or high water she'll fight with every fibre of her being to get it.
I had a feeling they were going to base their calculations on the HMRC figures as a true recorded reflection of his salary

I noticed you say you spoke to the Judge,,,,did your son attend as well??

[Enforcer]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Yes son was there, however I was there as his representative.

[Inca]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Hiya Enforcer..

How long were your son and Mum3 in a relationship?
I ask because it seems to be that she thinks your son is definitely being frugal with the truth about his finances/assets.
If they were together for a while then she obviously had an insight to his life,owning the caravan/income etc etc
I honestly don't think your wife's cheque is going to make one iota of difference,,it could be seen as an attempt to circumvent the caravan being included in your sons assets.
,Your Accountants figures to the HMRC are the ones that are being used to assess the correct amount your son will have to pay..it's as simple as that. You can't really argue the point otherwise you are saying that the tax returns submitted to HMRC are ,in fact,not correct. It's a Catch 22,damned if you tell the true figures,damned if you don't..

Mum3 is not going to 'roll over' on this one,I can tell you that by the way she is handling it..she's made sure her bases are covered.
The ultimate goal here is to have the £50 a week your son pays to Mum2 included in the calculations for Mum3..that's a given,CMS;s own rules state it must happen..Mum3 knows this hence her determination to prove your son is hiding assets to make the figure he has to pay her as little as possible and she will walk over hot coals to prove it.
The argument is the same on both sides..it's all about the money..she believes she is standing up and being counted for her child and,in effect,so do you except your child is a 35yr old grown man.
Then there is the arrears issue..I would be very surprised if she didn't get a judgement in her favour there,hence it's better to keep paying her in the interim so they don't get any higher
Personally..I'd follow the Directions given by the tribunal to the letter,,your son must be 100% truthful with his replies and see where that takes the decision.
Whatever the final figures are the simple bare facts remain..he will be paying for the next 16/18 years and I guarantee she will be watching like a hawk and will have him back and fore to court if she thinks his circumstances have changed and most definitely will when he is no longer paying for Child2.

Please don't think I'm 'on her side' as such,,I'm just trying to see both sides of the story....I raised my son on my own cos his Dad was as much use a chocolate fireguard,paid bugger all and now wonders why his son can't be bothered with him but that's MY history.

I hope your son is working as hard as you are to sort all this out..he's lucky to have a Dad willing to do what you have thus far.

[Enforcer]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

They were together for 13 months. Perhaps she does actually think that he is wealthy. In one of her letters she asks the csa to contact annex for his tax returns, she says that he regularly earned in excess of £60,000 pa. The £29,000 declared was the highest sum ever.

[PlanB]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

I think what your son needs now is a spin doctor. Someone who can help him to present himself to the Tribunal in the best possible light instead of being seen as some who criticizes and resents every penny paid to the mother of his child (because that's what she is).

From what you have said the Tribunal Judge was acting suspicious of his (and your family business') financial motives. Mum 3 is coming across as a poor depressed woman abandoned by him while pregnant so leaving her with a small baby to bring up on £35 per week, which we all know is impossible with the price of nappies these days. He needs to recover some of the moral high ground which she is dominating. He also needs to get one of those A4 notepads of his own!

Help him to change tact. Empower him to speak for himself instead of you representing him. You can still give a Witness Statement and be cross-examined on it. But wouldn't it be better if he told the Tribunal how he really feels? You don't want this to look like a family conspiracy against the Applicant because that will not only plant negative thoughts in the Judge's mind (and Tribunal Judges have a lot of discretion when deciding these cases) but also dash any hope of settling this amicably.

A court or Tribunal hearing is a theatrical performance. Credibility is vital. With Dad speaking on his behalf he may be perceived as someone who has something to hide even when he hasn't.

Do you have a date for the next hearing?

[Enforcer]

Re: Child Support Agency 2003 scheme Child Maintenance new scheme for cases after 25th Nov 2013

Judge said next hearing will be October or November