Extended Mortgage term and Buildings Insurance Premiums.

Hi again, hope i havn't offended anyone. I think i'm just a bit tired and emotional with all this now
to follow on from my post #60 when i said what the FOS where doing to lenders. I was able to find out more info up to date (ish) . I've found out that the limitations Act covers a couple of things pertinent to me, briefly the six year time limit, but also a 15 year long stop limit on any civil action. Non of these limits will apply in the case of a fraud or deciet. And the limitations act is a defence to a case and not a prohibition to bringing a case. So i felt comfortable on that score. I was pleased to find out that the FOS do not adhere to any 15 year long stop limit either. Thats the good news.

The other good news is that the FOS still appear to deal with these cases. I found two against the same lender (post 2012) . Both lost against the lender and their circumstances where very different to mine but i did get a takeaway from each case. (i'll link them if anyone wants to read them). In one case far from being outraged at the unknown term extension the Ombudsman appears relaxed about the term extension, saying (not verbatim)..... as was their usual practice at the time. And in the next case, despite the FOS ruling that they had not informed customers of the rate changes and effects they allowed the lender to reconstruct a rate change letter that would of been sent and had no sympathy for the borrower saying they never knew. This case was however 1986 rate change. But in general i got the impression that the brutal approach to the lender had changed to a drilling of the borrowers details instead.

Actually i'll pop the cases up here :
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org....DRN1346219.pdf

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org....DRN6172128.pdf

I havn't waited to visit the post office, i still have the big envelope sitting here. I've filled in the online complaints this afternoon. I'll know within ten working days hopefully if they will consider my complaint or they won't. My belief is that althought my case is a long one and historic, its still relativley simple and its still occuring. The difficult part would be the working out of any restitution should i win. In the meantime i'll probably recieve my SAR and mortgage calculation before i find out if my complaint has been accepted. Wish me luck, i'll keep you updated

[Still Waving]

However i have detected that you don't do nuance...........my reference to freeman on the land stuff was meant to imply that i generally regard them as nutters that fill page after page after page with useless babble. I thought i had indicated (by mention of them ) that i had exactly done the opposite (kept it concise).

Yes it can be a problem when I'm trying to multi-task late in the evening.

Anyway, good luck with your case. I guess I prefer to be "belt and braces" when it's other people who will be making the decisions.

Personally I think you have sufficient!

I think so too Roger.

Hi

First, I would suggest forgetting that freeman of the land stuff. Second, aren't you going off half-cocked sending whatever to whomever before you have all your info? It's your choice alone, obviously, but ....

Hi Still waving, many thanks for your reply. You seem to add anyalitical replies that i hadn't considered, so i'm well aware that your brain functions very different to mine and also i'm very appreciative of your replies so i don't want you to stop ! However i have detected that you don't do nuance...........my reference to freeman on the land stuff was meant to imply that i generally regard them as nutters that fill page after page after page with useless babble. I thought i had indicated (by mention of them ) that i had exactly done the opposite (kept it concise).

Your second point............. am i going off half cocked ?
Its a good question and its a question i have considered at length before i even done it . I've sent my complaint to the Ombudsman. I'm not going to recompile them here again, but everything i need i've posted here in this thread. Their own statements confirm the start date of the loan, their own statements confirm the payment amount and the loan amount. Its mostly due to you that i realised what they done to me in plain sight and i never realised it . The SAR and the rest of it is going to be akin to me watching a video of someone doing something bad to me, i'll just get the graphic detail. I know there is nothing in that SAR that is going to be negative to me, i also know that any ombudsman /adjudcator will get access to all my files and history and they will do that no matter what info i produce by way of a SAR. They will investigate me as much as the lender, i've no problem with that. Like i said previously............. i'm either right or i'm wrong.

[Roger]

Personally I think you have sufficient!
"..
I note that there was a delay in the completion of your mortgage and it did not actually complete until January 1989.
At this time you were quoted an instalment of £118.69 based on an interest rate of 12.75%.
Later in the month the interest rate increased to 13.50%, however you continued to pay £118.69, and as a result the term extended
.."
It implies a detailed knowledge of your Mortgage!
1/ ".. there was a delay in the completion of your mortgage and it did not actually complete until January 1989 .." - Thats a Start Date
2/ "..At this time you were quoted an instalment of £118.69 based on an interest rate of 12.75%. .."
3/ ".. Later in the month the interest rate increased to 13.50%, however you continued to pay £118.69, and as a result the term extended .."

Now your knowledge is 1/ and their advice to you 2/
BUT in that same month the records show that because of a interest rate increase - WHAT THEY HAD QUOTED 2/ HAD CHANGED AND YOU WERE NOT TOLD!

This is all you really need to know as the basis of your complaint!
Because they admit 3/ that they knew that 2/ WAS wrong!
I mean that is more than enough for a Complaint

I've trawled the web far and wide around this subject and i'll try to summarise my findings quickly: in cases where the underfunding was caused partly by the borrower (i.e they where in arrears) there was complex formulas drawn up for how the lender should compensate them (for their mistake). This was around 1999/2000. As the cases came flooding through and the scale of what the lenders had been doing became apparent the ombudsman adopted a different approach. It s was quite brutal, and thats how the press reported it at the time............ the ombudsman required for lenders to put every underfunding case back into the position they would of been. In my own particular case, my lender AN had admitted they made a communications blunder by not informing customers between 1988 and 1993 of the changes and they also apologised for the fact. They had a team that was going to contact everyone they thought was affected. Thats how it was all until about 2007, when the ombudsman said they had a deadline for new underfunding cases.

[Still Waving]

Hi

First, I would suggest forgetting that freeman of the land stuff. Second, aren't you going off half-cocked sending whatever to whomever before you have all your info? It's your choice alone, obviously, but ....

Ok i think i've become a victim of "forum blindness". I feel the need to get my SAR and explanation and post it here to prove i'm right. This is all inside my own head BTW and of no making by anyone else. Just based on the small amount of documentation i have, and the lenders replies my case is already there, its complete and i've nothing to add. The extra info (SARS and calculation breakdown) will be neccesary if i have to go to court. Non of it is going to be any different than i remember and what already been disclosed in the paperwork i have. Its just took me a while to understand this. I now know they have calculated my payments incorrectly, that will all be a matter of fact and its in keeping with what i remember. ETC..........
My big envelope is going in the post on Monday morning. I've kept it brief and succinct and avoided the temptation to wear a tin foil hat and read out my rights as a freeman on the land :-)
I do have some concerns over the time limits though, but i'll go though that in my next post.

By the way ML, exactly what information did you ask for in your (telephoned) SAR?

Hour and a half i was on the fone until i got to the right person. He seemed very helpful. I explained my account started in 1989 and i would need all records from inception / offer to date as i had a complex complaint/query and i needed to go over everything and work stuff out and check rates/payments etc.

[Roger]

"..
I note that there was a delay in the completion of your mortgage and it did not actually complete until January 1989.
At this time you were quoted an instalment of £118.69 based on an interest rate of 12.75%. based on 12.75%
Later in the month the interest rate increased to 13.50%, however you continued to pay £118.69, and as a result the term extended
.."
1/ THEY QUOTED £118.69
2/ LATER IN THE MONTH ( BEFORE YOU PAID A PENNY) INTEREST RATE INCREASED 13.50%

But instead of saying "..Later in the month the interest rate increased to 13.50% .." AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN PAYING £XXX.XX

Why because they don't have that figure on record do they!!

".. you continued to pay £118.69, and as a result the term extended .." This is like plucking a term out of thin AIR knowing that whatever they decide can't be challenged!

THAT reply is damning fudge and instead of a breakdown over the term showing ALL Rate changes and payments and the term extending or decreasing etc..
THEY IMPLY THAT ITS THE PAYEES FAULT!!
Obviously they don't have the figures to hand do they otherwise when asked they could provide them!!
The SAR should include this later correspondence. The writer doesn't know the figures do they and yet write this fudge!

[Still Waving]

Roger

That admission is that you were at all times paying what they asked for. Thus fulfilling your commitment to the Mortgage.
Unless there is something in the small print of the Mortgage
IT IS THEY THAT ACCEPTED YOUR PAYMENT IN FULFILMENT OF THEIR MORTGAGE Repayments absorbing shortfalls!

I think you are making too many assumptions here. Best to wait and see what the SAR brings forth. The OP may be mis-remembering what correspondence was received back in 1989.

By the way ML, exactly what information did you ask for in your (telephoned) SAR?

^^^^
Roger , thanks a lot. I can't even believe i missed that.

[Roger]

The mortgage written Terms are the key!

They shoot themselves in the foot saying the following AND to set up a SO they would have to give you the necessary Banking details.
For a DD they would have been raising the payments themselves.
The SAR should include advice to you in writing of payment and payee details!

"..
I note that there was a delay in the completion of your mortgage and it did not actually complete until January 1989.
At this time you were quoted an instalment of £118.69 based on an interest rate of 12.75%. based on 12.75%
Later in the month the interest rate increased to 13.50%, however you continued to pay £118.69, and as a result the term extended
.."
1/ THEY QUOTED £118.69
2/ LATER IN THE MONTH ( BEFORE YOU PAID A PENNY) INTEREST RATE INCREASED 13.50%

That admission is that you were at all times paying what they asked for. Thus fulfilling your commitment to the Mortgage.
Unless there is something in the small print of the Mortgage
IT IS THEY THAT ACCEPTED YOUR PAYMENT IN FULFILMENT OF THEIR MORTGAGE Repayments absorbing shortfalls!

How could you KNOW ever? Thats the real point AND when reference is made to Insurance was this by chance to cover payments? The Banks had to pay considerable monies back for such Insurance!

Hi Roger, yes DD would show it originated from them. But also SO will be fine too i think, if (and it should) shows the specific figure i was quoted then that should work in my favour just as much too. I've had to get my head around the fact this is gonna be a slow process now so i'll have to sit on my hands a bit so to speak. I've 10 days or so to wait for their break down of the figure quoted, and about another fortnight before my SAR is due. Any could happen sooner but that won't change much, once i have that info i'll need to digest it and prepare properley as i won't get a second shot at putting my case to the Ombudsman. I've some other stuff going on what i'm doing which i'll tell about as i get a bit closer but i think realistically its going to be almost xmas before i'm ready to present to the Ombudsman. Then nothing will get looked at untill New Year then i may wait three months.............. I'll keep this updated as we go and as i get it. I find it helps me using this as a sort of diary and i do very much appreciate you guys input. Many minds is better than one. I've no idea if any of them read here but that doesn't bother me either, facts is facts and i'm either right or wrong.
I done some quick and dirty math to work out the first year of my mortgage. Before i do this you have to remember and you can only assume i am being correct and truthful that i'd not had so much as a word from my lender about a late payment, not paying enough or anything. I thought my mortgage had run like a clock............anyway :
If i run 13.3 k through the mortgage calc @ 13.5% (thats what they say it went to when i never increased my payment) then i get a figure of £155.05 per month. If as they say i paid £118.69 then the account was short of £36.36 per month. X12 = £436.32 add to that my insurance premium (or remainder of it) of £80.28 and we get a total of £516.60 to be added to the outstanding balance. Lets play Devils advocate here: brand new mortage account, in its first year the outstanding balance goes up by £516 , the payments are not being met and lets say it was all my fault ? You'd expect to have late fees, arrears charges, a letter or something ? But that never happened. Then it must of replicated in a similar fashion for the next three years (making 4 years in total). Then the lender looked at it and said oh, this balance now is 16.5k , if we extend his term now that the rates have come down it will make it easier for him, he will benefit from the lower payments. Could happen i suppose ?

[Roger]

DD or SO
Well I hope it was DD because that would have originated from them!
It should show on an old statement (your bank could surely supply one)