Extended Mortgage term and Buildings Insurance Premiums.

[The Tech Clerk]

Unfortunatly they have tried; but it seems we were unable to assist very much, they have the grasp of situation and reporting comments/updates, but alas many of us limited on that subject matter it would seem. good luck to them and I hope it gets sorted as something smells in their treatment.

Wonder if "Which" or citizens advice can offer a guide to best accountant or persons able to dissect the whole issue and advise them, or start complaint to FOS but have a file completed in date order and diary for which can be easily digested events. Trouble if formal complaint to the company who would have 60 days before FOS would look at it and that can take few years. without looking back pages if a complaint has been lodged already then onto FOS???? just my thought?

I just realised something else. I'm talking to my self, thanks for help and support i'll be off.

So today i received my S77 request................



So my first port of call was to my bank to ask who cashed the cheque. My Bank could not tell me for data protection reasons who did cash the cheque. But they assured me they will contact the recipient and ask them to notify me they have recieved it. What they could tell me though, was the sort code of the bank it was paid to. Here it is..........



So, someone got the cheque and request, banked the cheque and "lost" the request.

Its apparent to me now they do not have any agreement. I have my DSAR here and i can't see an agreement. What they have sent me today is not an agreement, and falls far short of complying with a S77 request, no financials, nothing. So i rung 'em !!!

Back in a bit with more when i've had me tea !!!

S77A , CCA 1974 sets out the requirements for annual statements. It also sets out what happens if they do not comply with the correct prescribed terms.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...rror-taxpayers



Now even though no one was harmed or lost out financially NR had to refund all the account holders for the years they did not comply with correct statements. I say "all", thats not strictly true. They only had to refund the people whose mortgages where regulated by the CCA. Those with mortgages over £25K and thus not regulated by the CCA got nothing.

None of my statements have my original loan amount on. I've just come off the phone from my lenders complaints department, i have made my complaint. I was told that all my statements provide all the information they are required to and they do not need to provide historic stuff. I told them i expect a considered and dilligent investigation into my complaint and not an off the hoof reply back on the phone. I made it very clear the prescribed term, in this case the original loan amount was missing and has been since 2008. And i would like a refund of all interest paid since, as per Northern Rock customers. Get my reply in writing next week. Wish me luck

"seek legal advice" they said.............. so i did. "Unfortunately, this is not something we would be able to assist you with" is the short answer.
I realise this will go down like a lead balloon here. I've come to understand how it all works.

This answer threw me into confusion , self doubt..etc... I was so certain, so cocksure i'd found out that failure to comply with S82 CCA74 would render the agreement invalid. "Good Luck" was the best legal advice i've recieved so far. I've had nine months or more of research, sleepless nights, learning about regulations and doing calculations i'd never thought i'd of had to do. So i re valued everything. I came to the conclusion that keeping a claim simple was best. Keeping it cheaper was even better, and after all a court could order higher than what i was claiming under its own volition if it found facts where true and warranted. I still feel that failure to comply with S82 is a binary question..........they complied or they didn't. And if they didn't comply the agreement could not take effect......."unless". I'm not dettered by anyone else dithering over the matter, i'm just gonna do my thing. So i researched more, i want to dot the "i"'s and cross the "t"'s. I've still no reply to my pre claim, and i've still no response to my CCA request for agreement and statement of account. I rang them up again on Friday 22nd July, and they assured me my request had been sent out and i will get it in next few days..............

I come to the conclusion that for me to take them to court i need to be concise and realistic in what i am asking. Also keep it within the small claims, so if i lost i would incur no costs other than my own court expenses. So in essence if i alleged S140 (unfair relationship), by way of them unilaterally varying the agreement without notice, brushing off my queries over the same etc. And was to maintain that my agreement should of and could of ended in 2014, then everything paid after 2014 i would like returned to me circa £8/9 K . I think that is realistically achieavable, without "luck " or "assistance".

In an S140 CCA claim the onus is on the creditor to prove the relationship is NOT unfair. In my case, they have unilaterally varied the agreement without my knowledge, which is actually prohibitted from happening , then they've a hard task ahead of them selves.

For myself, there are lots of other small peripheral things they done wrong... i.e Mortgage completion , wrong interest rate, wrong payments requested etc.... its quite a list, but none of them on their own are actionable as far as i know, they just add to the general picture that my creditor got things wrong or did not pay attention..........and was as i claim....generally "unfair". Or one sided, which is the same. Thanks to the negative legal advice i received i went down a rabbit hole, only this time i came up with a rabbit !!!

I'll update tomorrow, too late now. Part two coming in the morning.

[Roger]

Thats probably not possible. I havn't been paying my mortgage for a few months now, not that its a particular problem at present as i'm in credit. But the credit will soon run out.

Here is the issue 23^rd January 1989 CCA74 DEBT 25 years - straightforward repayment basis. Was there PPI with this?
changed 1^st January, 1993 (thats 4 years later and on paper your outstanding term was 25-4 = 21 years)

To this 21 years they added another 10years making 31 years.
A 25 year Mortgage became a 35 year Mortgage and it seems under new interest terms etc.. in a Non CCA74 Debt called Arranged Repayment Schedule.

Now the point is this wasn't New Money it was De Facto a Debt covered by CCA74 (Consumer Credit Act) . The question arises as to whether the Original CCA74 was or wasn't EN and also whether they have followed the terms within that CCA74 Agreement in closing and or otherwise that Agreement!

Its your rights under a Consumer Credit Act 1974 Agreement that are the real issue here.

marylikes


But I can see they could simply file your S.78 request away, couldn't they, without ever replying!
!

Thats probably not possible. I havn't been paying my mortgage for a few months now, not that its a particular problem at present as i'm in credit. But the credit will soon run out.

[Roger]

marylikes

Tactics come into the equation, plus Case Law, which is probably unknown to Us.

The DSAR contents becomes their statement of Facts!

But I can see they could simply file your S.78 request away, couldn't they, without ever replying!
Also there is the impact on your credit over the years comes to mind.

Knowledge of the Law can snooker you! Enough that there are more questions than answers.
You are to close to this matter perhaps for your own good and it can blinker your vision.

My advise is in this Case listen to Colin G Quinn
I hope at some point to here a successful solution from you over this!

I have taken the liberty to ask Colin already for some initial advice and thoughts and options.

Also S173 CCA, it is not possible to contract an agreement out of the CCA.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...39/section/173


Your other observations are correct. What they have done is fatal to their own made up agreement. I'll let you know how i get on. They could send me the info i require with a disclaimer its unenforcable, and thus enforce my case they have been taking money off me for 30 +years with no right. I suppose they could also ignore that fact and just send me my initial agreement and see what i will do next, risky .......as i have told them i will escalate it through the Courts. They could also just make me an offer to settle? I'm struggling hard to see a potential defense for them really.

It'll all come out in the wash ............ as ya gran would say...............

[Roger]

marylikes
This my problem " But you never set Out a Diary here so it means going though 16 pages of memos etc.. "

You have the DSAR evidence of
".. My agreement which is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act began on 23^rd January 1989. It was an advance of £13,375.69, repayable over 25 years at the Standard Variable rate of interest on a straightforward repayment basis. Account number SPxxxxxxx.

On the 1^st January, 1993 my account was modified. It became an “Arranged Repayment Schedule” . It got a start balance of £13,301.75 repayable over 31 years (or 370 months). It was given a new account number, 09xxxxxxxxxxx.
.."

Really that is all you need because of the CCA74 is a Consumer Credit Act there are duties within the ACT .
The Change of account number SEEMS to suggest the CCA was Closed sic old Account number
Now with CCA there are process advices etc which must be given in specific formats and timescales else the Account becomes UE

The DSAR apparently doesn't show that letters etc Closing the CCA account exist! Does it

Next step is talk to Colin G Quinn

With this DSAR evidence first interview is free!
Because I don't know what a CCA74 Mortgage looks like or what must be included within the CCA74 Act especially in 1989 AND as at 1st January 1993.

The question immediately is I presume and unsigned NEW non CCA74 account ( apparently whose terms and conditions have never been informed )

Talk to Colin G Quinn

Hi Roger, thanks for your interest and support. I have sent a DSAR, i have it . To answer your question of......."if it never turns up where do i go?"........... I've already gone there..............

PRE ACTION NOTICE OF CONSUMER CREDIT ACT CLAIM




Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you to lay out the facts of my claim against you under the Consumer Credit Act:

My agreement which is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act began on 23^rd January 1989. It was an advance of £13,375.69, repayable over 25 years at the Standard Variable rate of interest on a straightforward repayment basis. Account number SPxxxxxxx.




On the 1^st January, 1993 my account was modified. It became an “Arranged Repayment Schedule” . It got a start balance of £13,301.75 repayable over 31 years (or 370 months). It was given a new account number, 09xxxxxxxxxxx.




It took me another four years until 1997 to find out quite by chance that my mortgage account had longer to run than I expected or knew about. No one had bothered to inform me. S82 of the Consumer Act sets out the requirements for such variations. S82(1) precludes a unilateral variation of agreement by a firm from taking effect unless notice is given to the debtor or hirer in the prescribed manner.




In doing exactly what the Act prohibits this lends itself to my claim under S140A (1) of the Consumer Act of an Unfair Relationship. To compound matters, when I did find out my agreement had longer to run I was told several times between the period 1997 to 2002 that everything was as it should be and I was mislead and misdirected as to how this had come about as a result of what I had done or had not done. My lack of knowledge of the Consumer Act was preyed on, and I would be paying in effect an extra 10 years mortgage. This dismissal of my concerns has carried on into 2021. And infact nothing has changed since 1993, the agreement is still precluded from taking effect. But I have been paying it to date.




There are other issues with the account since inception, including monthly repayments inconsistent with the interest rate. An incorrectly functioning arrears balance system, posting of annual interest before the close of business etc. These issues are peripheral and maybe superfluous to my claim against you at present, but if you want more detail over them matters I am happy to provide more detail. The above breaches of the Consumer Act are fatal to the agreement and relationship between us, which is still ongoing.




A remedy through the Courts could entail a refund of all monies paid, ie. principal and interest. Or a refund of all interest paid, and may include 8% interest flat. With that in mind if you acknowledge the claim I am prepared to listen to any offer to remedy matters. If you do not acknowledge the claim let me know which facts or part(s) of the claim are disputed.




I would expect a reply within 28 days,

Yours Faithfully,

xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxx.

[Roger]

Today i have recieved a copy of a letter sent to me on June20th. It was detailing my expected monthly payments for years 1989 and year 1990. I never asked for a copy of this letter, its been sent in error or obtusely. I have called them on the phone today. I told them i still have no response to my CCA request (for agreement and statement of account) that i sent on 20th June. They said they would action it right away and they have no record of my request. I should expect my request in about 5 days. I told them i had this same conversation last Friday, and could i speak to someone else over the matter, i was told no i couldn't (speak to anyone else over it). It will go to "Admin Team" who are not public facing. I told them the cheque i sent for £1 had been cashed, so it should of been actioned and someone has recieved the request, i was told they will look into it.

My gut instinct to what has happened here is that as they have looked at what they need to send under the CCA request, they have realised that they need to send a copy of a "modifying agreement" as per the modification in 1993. They do not have one, i've never been sent one. Their own correspondance confirms i was never notified of any modification. That is a major problem, as the agreement cannot take effect "unless" i have notice of it[in the prescribed manner]. Infact S82 (1) CCA74 prohibits any such unilateral change from taking place "unless" .

I posted my pre claim to them on 30th June, which, basically alleges this. So they have probably held back sending me anything as it will incriminate themselves and they need to decide what to do. Consumer Credit Sourcebook (CONC) states this [in relation to CCA request]:

(6) If the agreement has been varied, the duty is to provide not only a
copy of the agreement as originally executed but also either:
(a) a copy of the latest variation given in accordance with section
82(1) of theCCA relating to each discrete term of the agreement
which has been varied; or,
(b) a clear statement of the terms of the agreement as varied


As they do not have one then the previous section should come into play, which basically makes my case :

(5) If the reason why no copy is given in response to a request under
these sections is that there never was an executed agreement, the
firm should acknowledge this in its response.

I'm struggling to see their next move if i'm honest. I've a hunch i'll find out this week coming though.

You are winding yourself UP.

I ADVISED SENDING A DSAR the reason is they could delay dealing with your S.78 request because you have been paying haven't you? If it never turns up where then do you go?

The DSAR is a right to ALL Data they hold on you! They delay you report them!! Its this simple.

DSAR don't speculate see what they send they have 30 days!

Today i have recieved a copy of a letter sent to me on June20th. It was detailing my expected monthly payments for years 1989 and year 1990. I never asked for a copy of this letter, its been sent in error or obtusely. I have called them on the phone today. I told them i still have no response to my CCA request (for agreement and statement of account) that i sent on 20th June. They said they would action it right away and they have no record of my request. I should expect my request in about 5 days. I told them i had this same conversation last Friday, and could i speak to someone else over the matter, i was told no i couldn't (speak to anyone else over it). It will go to "Admin Team" who are not public facing. I told them the cheque i sent for £1 had been cashed, so it should of been actioned and someone has recieved the request, i was told they will look into it.

My gut instinct to what has happened here is that as they have looked at what they need to send under the CCA request, they have realised that they need to send a copy of a "modifying agreement" as per the modification in 1993. They do not have one, i've never been sent one. Their own correspondance confirms i was never notified of any modification. That is a major problem, as the agreement cannot take effect "unless" i have notice of it[in the prescribed manner]. Infact S82 (1) CCA74 prohibits any such unilateral change from taking place "unless" .

I posted my pre claim to them on 30th June, which, basically alleges this. So they have probably held back sending me anything as it will incriminate themselves and they need to decide what to do. Consumer Credit Sourcebook (CONC) states this [in relation to CCA request]:

(6) If the agreement has been varied, the duty is to provide not only a
copy of the agreement as originally executed but also either:
(a) a copy of the latest variation given in accordance with section
82(1) of theCCA relating to each discrete term of the agreement
which has been varied; or,
(b) a clear statement of the terms of the agreement as varied


As they do not have one then the previous section should come into play, which basically makes my case :

(5) If the reason why no copy is given in response to a request under
these sections is that there never was an executed agreement, the
firm should acknowledge this in its response.

I'm struggling to see their next move if i'm honest. I've a hunch i'll find out this week coming though.

But you never set Out a Diary here so it means going though 16 pages of memos etc..

You have had sterling assistance from Still Waving

You should NOW send for a DSAR which is reportable after 30 days!

Hi Roger, i never set out a diary, as this thread was initially just a question over something i felt was wrong. Thanks to help and advice here i am now understanding just what that wrong was. I already have my DSAR.

[Roger]

Just remembered, i still not got this request yet. The cheque was cashed on 28th June. I rang them up 8th July and they said "a letter" had been sent out on 29thJune, they wouldn't divulge the contents but where happy to divulge the contents of the above letter dated 6th July .. I told them i got nothing, so they said will re send but still nothing. I had done a standard CCA request for copy of agreement and statement of account to date.

Did you send the AAD S.78 template request?
The CCA and Terms at start should be sent and also Terms as at the End of the Agreement or as at today if the agreement is still current.
It is these Contractual terms that should explain the computation of Debt and interest


But you never set Out a Diary here so it means going though 16 pages of memos etc..

You have had sterling assistance from Still Waving

You should NOW send for a DSAR which is reportable after 30 days!
I really can't comment on your Non receipt of Letters to your address , which they have been writing to for years?
Send for the DSAR to find out what happened and when the CCA 74 Mortgage became something else!

It will be boxes of information BUT at least it should be everything they HOLD!

Can't comment really on anything else.