Extended Mortgage term and Buildings Insurance Premiums.

Weird:

Thanks Still Waving. I know, TBH its left me more confused. I can't actually work out what has happened other than its been extended by 10 years. From what i can fathom of the payments i made they seem very specific so like i thought i was paying what i was asked to pay. Any ideas at all or just sleep on it and wait for FOS to have a look ?

[Still Waving]

Hi

It's not easy to decipher some of the column entries on those 'statements'. However, your original mortgage according to their letter was £13,375.69. The first two of those statements appear to show that your balance at end of 1990 was £13,324.59 (£13,196.84 plus your 22/1/91 payment of £127.75), and your balance at end of 1991 was £13,274.80, and at end of 1992 was £13301.75 - which is what you said at post #44 was the original loan amount.

It does appear (from these statements) that you mis-remembered the original mortgage sum. It also appears that the year end balance outstanding was not going up in those first 2/3 years. It went up slightly at end of '92, but the statement does not appear to show the early part of the year.

I can't follow those scans of 1993, but they do appear to show balance at end of '93 as £13129.08.

This all seems to go against the original thinking that the balance was going up each year.

Looking at the statements, they're largely unintelligible to me. I've cropped nothing off them and that is how they have come to me. I've difficulty in working out payments from debits. The opening letter with the SAR states .

.Historical information can only be retained if there is a legitimate reason for doing so. Therefore, some of the original account records may have been destroyed in line with our records retention policy.

Now the odd thing is that they have give me letters from 1988/1989 etc.... but the most crucial years accounts/statement i.e 1989/1990 are not there. That worries me really, any advice ? Also the bundle threw up a memory, something i'd forgotten about and its revealing in its own right i think:

In 1993 we went to look at a new build estate round the corner from us and made an initial application to buy one of the new houses. As was the case then the sales people sorted every part of the application out for you and they filled out an application for a mortgage with the Woolwich Building Society. The Woolwich in turn contacted AN to check our mortgage history. Here is the reply from AN in September 1993.

Hi again, i have my SAR now and its took a while to go through it and understand it. I now have a great deal of empathy for the Complaints Investigator that looked at it and refused it, its hard to understand unless you know specifically what you are looking for and the investigator did look. I see in the notes they did look and there was a lack of documentation from the time period i was concerned about. There is no financials at all for 1989 and 1990 . So the only way you can get clue is to read the correspondance, i'll try lay it out here , i hoping some here maybe able to help me understand it better..........

From what i can fathom out, this shows that far from failed to increase my payment, i did infact overpay initially? And confirms i paid what they asked for ?

Oh, i almost forgot......... i'm not able to calculate it but at the time there was MIRAS (Mortgage Interest Relief At Source) and i think that is what "RCR" refers too.

Statements from 1991 to 1993 :

Hi again, i have my SAR now and its took a while to go through it and understand it. I now have a great deal of empathy for the Complaints Investigator that looked at it and refused it, its hard to understand unless you know specifically what you are looking for and the investigator did look. I see in the notes they did look and there was a lack of documentation from the time period i was concerned about. There is no financials at all for 1989 and 1990 . So the only way you can get clue is to read the correspondance, i'll try lay it out here , i hoping some here maybe able to help me understand it better..........

[The Tech Clerk]

some complaints procedures can take a long time to follow and responded to via regulators also 8 weeks after a complaint can you lodge with the regulators, no easy way around it., I have waited nearly 2 years and only just beginning to investigate a case.

[The Tech Clerk]

SAR not produced after 30 days?? then a complaint to the ICO do it on line (Information Commissioner's Office)
Make a complaint | ICO

Still no response to anything. There is no way i can sit on my hands for potentially four months. Is there anything to preclude me from lodging a complaint with the FCA at this point ?

Ok thanks, point taken. But i have only asked for a SAR once, i've not mentioned it to them since. And i've asked a separate question of how they did my calculation. I've asked no more than that.

[Still Waving]

Hi

See my post #50.

Last week i emailed SN, i emailed a complaints investigator direct as their email address was in the email signature when they replied to me saying they would get info to me in 7 to 10 working days. I recieved email response back (generic email address). Briefly......... staff email addresses are for private internal use only, i've had my answer and my case has been thoroughly investigated, and

If you remain unhappy with Santander's response you have already taken the necessary step to approach the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). They will contact Santander accordingly and liaise with our FOS adjudicator, and a response will be provided in line standard procedure.

I have highlighted the bit in bold.

I take that pretty much as .."don't contact us again over this" ?

I've still no SAR here, Friday is the deadline i expect. My request on 22nd Nov for an explanation of my starting payments, still not here. If its not here tomorrow that will be over 10 working days.

I read somewhere, i'll see if i can find it in a bit, that the FCA/FCS code of conduct does require then to answer any concerns or queries with no timescale. Also FOS been in touch today, i have a case number and it can take around 4 months for case handler to get in touch with me.

I suppose i can beaver around with some simple questions in the meantime , i.e if my quoted payment was £118 @ 12.75%, what amount should of been paid when the rate changed to 13.5% ? I'm guessing these are simple legitimate questions they should answer or would it seem like spurious questions and i'm harrasing them ?

[Roger]

OK first you CAN'T CALCULATE because you haven't been given any of the figures!

1/ Interest Rates and when changes occured? When , How and on what basis (Debt? Loan Term?) You couldn't know could you!

2/ That great unknown Abbey National General Insurance Premiums! Again what valuation? Property or outstanding mortgage and Loan Term?
".. From 1988 your buildings insurance premiums should have been paid directly to Abbey National General Insurance without the mortgage account being effected. ."?

Were you informed there was an ANNUAL insurance premium to their own Insurance Co. Specifically when they Quoted that first payment?
Because logically the Insurance had to start before that first Payment! [ couldn't before because you didn't own the property ]

Why didn't they write and ask for THIS Premium EACH AND EVERY YEAR?

".. However if the premium was not paid, then after a period of 63 days the mortgage account was debited with the premium, to ensure the property remained insured. This would not have put the loan into arrears but it would of increased the outstanding balance of the loan..."

Because this automatically EXTENDED the TERM of the LOAN! They knew this and could and should have informed you! YEAR on YEAR!

Now as per your statement ORIGINAL LOAN TERM 370 MONTHS = 30 years plus 10 month - starting Jan 1989 = OCT 2019

per your entry

• January 1989 : take out mortgage on house for 13.3k at a 25 year term THAT is 301 months = FEB 2014
• SO their 370 means as per their statement they had already ADD 60 MONTHS on the Term!

From the date of the statement December 2009
Remaining as at that time 13 years 11 months NOV 2022

No explaination for the additional 13 years 11 month on top of what? 25 years OR that 30 years plus 10 months

So you see you don't know the Interest Rate and changes OR how these Changes were computed by AN at each and every change.
Meaningless is their saying WE DON'T DO THAT NOW what are they saying they CONTINUED or they CHANGED the Mortgage Terms? Who Knows?

Now if you separately Insured your Property from that JAN 1989 and have evidence did they Know?
They should have asked you?
Because AN were making money on their AN Insurance Company were they NOT. Seems to me this was to cover their LOAN - same trick that the Banks were doing and had to repay the premiums!

Hopes these NOTES will help you!