Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

Forgot to let you know earlier, she is out of office until the new coming week, as said on the automated email and it will not get read until her return, maybe that's why she worked last Sunday lol. Will keep you posted.

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

Yea they work all hours lately - however reply and tell her that you want to send your loan evidence in and NOT to do anything until then. Also, in that same email say

"I am shocked to discover that your neutrality is clearly biased toward the bank. Just tell me how on earth you can make a firm decision with only one side of the story, as a neutral viewpoint? I don't think you can ergo please find attached copies of my evidence which must be taken into account.

Please also send me details of your Team Manager as I feel a formal complaint is necessary as a result of the way you're treating me and the way your impartiality is brought into question, by being so biased towards Lloyds in this matter"

See how she likes that eh?

Decision unchanged, if i disagree to let them know now or by 5th Dec with any other info.

I will try posting this up later, not happy.
I dont usually give up but dont feel i can give anything further, they just dont believe us by the seems of it.

Nids even though we never received details of the team manager (as they have stated problematic emails blocks etc) we found she was on leave for bereavement, so hubby said to leave asking for the details of the team manager at that point, and take it from this decision, but now we have the decision I am obviously not happy with it.

I shall try posting it up later, cheers.

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

Decision unchanged, if i disagree to let them know now or by 5th Dec with any other info.

I will try posting this up later, not happy.
I dont usually give up but dont feel i can give anything further, they just dont believe us by the seems of it.

Nids even though we never received details of the team manager (as they have stated problematic emails blocks etc) we found she was on leave for bereavement, so hubby said to leave asking for the details of the team manager at that point, and take it from this decision, but now we have the decision I am obviously not happy with it.

I shall try posting it up later, cheers.

Grrr print/scanner issing me off!!

I will write in the main things of the complaint if i'm not able to scan to attach etc.....

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

First opinion of decision last Month Oct 2013.

Dear

Your Complaint about Lloyds TSB Bank (Lloyds)

I am writing to set out my assessment of this complaint. In reaching my assessment, I have considered all the evidence and documents that you and Lloyds have sent us.

Complaint:
Your account was upgraded to a gold sevice account at some point prior to December 2001. Following this your account was upgraded to a platinum and then premier account. You are unhappy as you stated that these accounts were not suitable for you, and that you were not aware that free options were available.

Circumstances:
Your account was upgraded to a gold service account prior to 2001.

On August 2005, your account was upgraded to a platinum account at your local branch of Lloyds.

On May 2007, your account was upgraded again, this time to a premier account.

In 2009 your account was frozen and transferred to Lloyds DCA.

In August 2005, following the media interest in packaged accounts,you realised that you could have had a free current account. You complained to Lloyds and requested a refund of all the account fees you had paid. You stated that the benefits associated with the accounts had not been suitable foryou, as you had pre-existing medical conditions which would not have been covered under the travel insurance and then did not own mobile phones.

Lloyds responded stating that you drive a car and therefore would have been able to benefit from the breakdown cover provided by the account. It also noted that you had upgraded your accounts numerous times. Lloyds did not uphold your complainty. Dissatisfied with the response you brought your complaint to our service for an independent review.

Findings:
I have carefully considered all of the available evidence and arguments from the outset. In order to decide what is fair and reasonable in the individual circumstances of this case. I have taken into account the law and good industry practice at the time the packaged bank account was sold, and any regulatory rules and guidance relevant to the complaint. In essence, the questions I need to consider in this case are:

. Whether you were given a fair choice about upgrading.
. Whether, in giving advice or recommendation, Lloyds took adequate steps to ensure that any insurance policies it recommended as part of the packaged bank account were suitable for your needs.
. Whether Lloyds gave you information that was clear, fair and not misleading in order to put you back in the position where you could make an informed choice about the packaged account you were buying.

If Lloyds did something wrong when selling the packaged bank account I will then consider whether you have suffered a loss as a result.

Did you consent to the upgrade and did you know that you could have had a free account?

You have said that you agreed to the upgrades; however you have said that this is because you were then under the impression that you had to have a fee paying account.

Lloyds been able to provide me with limited information about the upgrades. You have said that you were not made aware of the free accounts availble to you.

It is not clear exactly when your account was upgraded to a gold service account. Having reviewed the statements you have provided, I can see you were charged a fee of £8 in December 1997 and then later on a fee of £5 in May 2000.

The statements you have provided from 1997 to 2000 are headed up "Lloyds TSB Classic Account" from the Lloyds range. A fee appears on your statements in December 1997 and to May 2000. Therefore whilst I can see you have been charged a fee on these occasions during the 3 year period, I am unable to conclude that this fee was for a packaged account - I find it more likely that this fee was related to an overdraft charge.

As Lloyds has provided me with details of you taking out a gold service loan in January 2001, and you only qualify for a gold service loan if you hold a gold service account, I am persuaded you held a gold service account at that time. The last bank statement you have provided which is headed up as Classic account is dated May 2000. I will therefore proceed on the basis that your account was upgraded to a gold account at some point between May 2000 and January 2001.

In light of the above, I am satisfied that you were aware that free accounts were available to you as you held a fee free account prior to the upgrades. As such I find it unlikely that you were under the impression that you had to have a fee paying account in order to bank with Lloyds. I am therefore persuaded that it is more than not you were given a fair choice about whether or not to upgrade on all three occasions.

Were the sales advised or non-advised?
I have been provided with limited information from the upgrades. You have not said anything to suggest the upgrades were advised - you have said you thought you had to have the various fee paying accounts. This would suggest that the accounts were not only recommended to you, as you have said that they were presented to you as the only options available and the benefits were not discussed in detail.

I will therefore proceed on the basis that the account upgrades were probably non-advised.

As the account upgrades were not advised, Lloyds was not required to establish whether the insurance products were suitable for you. Instead, it was required to provide you with clear, fair and not misleading information about the accounts before you agreed to upgrade. I will assess further whether I consider it met these requirements below.

Were you provided with clear, fair and not misleading information about the accounts?

You have provided me with a copy of pages from the gold service welcome pack which you were sent after your account was upgraded. This pack makes reference to the accountfeee and the associated benefits. On balance I would consider that you were provided with some information about the account at the time it was upgraded as, you had not been, I would have expected you to query this when you received the welcome pack after the upgrade.
You have said that you were made aware of the benefits and of the account fee each time your account was upgraded. This suggests that you did receive some information about the packaged bank accounts but it is possible that your needs were not fully met by Lloyds for example, you may not have been informed about the exclusions and limitations of the insurance products. However, when considering your account has been mis sold, I also need to consider whether you suffered any detriment.

Did you suffer any loss as a result of the potential short comings?

I am persuaded that you were aware that you could have had a free account and instead you chose to take out the packaged account. You have confirmed that you were aware of the account fees and the benefits associated with the account.

Although there may have been some restriction relating to the insurance products which you were not aware of,I note that whilst you held a gold service account you took out two gold service loans. As you had the gold service account, you got these loans at the preferential rate. Furthermore, having reviewed your statements I can see that during the time you held a platinum and premier account you were overdrawn. As a result, you have saved money through having both the accounts as you saved more in overdraft interest through having a preferential overdraft rate than you paid in monthly account fees.

In light of the above, even if there were shortcomings in the way which your accounts were upgraded,based on your actions and your financial circumstances I am not persuaded that you would have done anything differently had you been given all the information. It seems most likely to me that you would have still taken out the packaged account. If you had been properly informed. As a result I am unable to recommend that Lloyds should refund any of the account fees you have paid.

Conclusions:
Because of this, I have to tell you that I am unable to recommend that your complaint should be upheld. I appreciate that this is likely to come as a disappointment to you. I know that this is not the outcome you were hoping for but hope that my explanation has been helpful in setting our clearly why I have taken this view.

However, if you disagree with how I have reached my conclusions, please contact me by 13 November 2013 telling me your reasons and including any evidence that you have not already provided and that you think is important to your case. Please let me know now if you plan to reply in full but you do not think you will be able to meet that deadline.

As we explain in our leaflet, your complaint and the ombudsman, consumers have the right to ask the ombudsman to review their case - as the final stage in our process. But if you do not hear from you by 13 November 2013, we will take it that you have decided not to pursue the complaint further.

Yours sincerely

Adjudicator.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............
Current Decision as received today 21 November 2013.


Dear Mr & Mrs

Your complaint about Loyds Bank PLC (Lloyds)

I have considered very carefully the additional information you have sent us. However, I regret to tell you that my view of your complaint remains unchanged.

As I explained in my previous opinion, I am not pursuaded that you thought you had to have a fee paying account in order to bank with Lloyds, as you held a free account with them prior to the account upgrades.

You have provided me with the details of the loans you taken out with Lloyds from 1989 to present. I note that this information shows that in 2001 (arund the time your account was upgraded to a gold service account) you took out two gold service loans.

I can see from the details of the loan agreements you have provided that you received a lower interest rate on the gold service loans than on the other loans you took out prior to the upgrade.

I note you have also provided details of a Special offer loan with you took out after the upgrade, and which had a lower interest rate than the gold service account loans. You have implied that you would not have agreed to upgrade on the basis that you could get a preferential rate on your loans, as you received a better interest rate on the special offer loan with was not related to your gold service account.

The term Special offer suggests that this loan rate was available for a limited time only. You took out this special offer loan in 2006 some years after you agreed to upgrade your account. There is no evidence to show that the special offer loan was available to you at the time you upgraded your account. I cannot reasonably conclude that the fact you received a better rate of interest on a loan you took out in 2006 would have influenced your decision to upgrade in 2001. As the gold service rate was the preferential rate available to you at that time - and from the information you have provided getting a good interest rate on your loans was something that was important to you - I consider it likely you agreed to upgrade for this reason.

You have also provided me with the evidence that you had stand alone extended warranty cover in 1998. The evidence Lloyds provided would suggest that extended warranty cover was a benefit of the gold service account in 2001, when your account was updraged. I note the evidence you have provided does not show that you had extended warranty cover at that time. In any event, I must reiterate that is some of the benefits associated with the account were not suitable for you this does not automatically mean that the account was mis sold.

In order to find that the account was mis sold I would need to be satisfied there were shortcomings in the sales procedure and also that had the shortcomings not taken place you would have acted differently. You have explained that at the time your account was upgraded you were made aware of both the account benefits and the monthly fee. I am therefore not persuaded that had Lloyds made it clear to you that the Gold Service account would be providing you with duplicate extended warranty cover, this would have made you reconsider the upgrade.

I would also note that the point of sale documentation you have provided would suggest that extended warranty cover was not a benefit of the gold service account at the time you upgraded.

In light of the above, it follows that I am still persuaded that it is more likely than not you chose to upgrade your account to a gold service account because you wanted to benefit from the preferential loan rate the account offered you. I say this because on balance I am not persuaded you thought you had to pay for your account in order to bank with Lloyds.

As far as the upgrades to the platinum and premier accounts are concerned, you were overdrawn during the time you held these accounts. As a result, you have saved money through having both the platinum and premier accounts as you saved more in overdraft interest through having preferential overdraft rate that you paid in monthly account fees.

Therefore, as I have explained previously, although there may have been some shortcomings in the way in which the accounts were sold to you. I am not persuaded that you would have done anything differently had all the requirements been met.

This means that I do not consider your complaint should be upheld. I know this is not the outcome you were hoping for. And I appreciate this will come as a disappointment to you.

If you disagree with this please write to tell me by 5 December 2013 - setting out your reasons and including any evidence that you have not already provided and that you think is important to your case. I would be grateful if you could let me know now. If you plan to reply fully but do not think you will be able to meet this deadline.

As we explain in our leaflet, your complaint and the Ombudsman, consumers have the right to ask an ombudsman to review their case - as the final stage of our process. But if we do not hear from you by 5 December 2013, we will assume that you have decided not to pursue further.

Yours sincerely

Adjudicator.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .

Some errors "again" neither of us had an account in 1989 with Lloyds!

The loan was not even taken out straight away when they upgraded our account to Gold in 2001.......

(in the same year but not at the same time as the account was upgraded to us).

And we were not made aware of the benefits and costs etc, why isnt she listening!!

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

because they are trying to stop a repeat of the PPI fiasco Di, there reply is littered with errors so I will go over this in the coming days and before the end of weekend and post up my thoughts.

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

because they are trying to stop a repeat of the PPI fiasco Di, there reply is littered with errors so I will go over this in the coming days and before the end of weekend and post up my thoughts.

Thank you Pompey

It seems like they are twisting everything we said. I would not have bothered putting in the complaint in the first place if I didnt think I had one lol, but the fact where they said that I was aware of the fees etc.....

That sounds about right though Pompey :-)

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

In June she emailed about a benefit within the gold package of extended warranty, with that I expressed in some of the further info sent to my adjudicator that we realise that it was also included in a separate insurance cover with Lloyds from the 90s and that it continued all the way to 2003 when we changed our cover elsewhere.........this was her email below, but as you will see she have raised this up in her decision that it suddenly isnt an issue as such.

Her email in June 2013......

Having reviewed this welcome pack I note that the gold account provided free extended warranty cover (for appliances costing less than £1,000) and purchase protection for any item purchased with a gold current account card over £50.

Please could you let me know if these benefits would have been of use to you when the account was upgraded. If they would not have been of any use, I would be grateful if you could explain why.

I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible, and in any event no later than 26 June 2013.

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

Hubby emailed about some errors in regards of a loan he never had in 1989, the dates she can see if an opening of a "sole" savings account.

Do you think I should also request for fast track due to my Kidney disease (non curable) not even dialysis or transplant is a cure for what I have. Hubby did mention this but she saying it has to be terminal for fast track, mine is classed as terminal, and not only that it was accepted for fast track on another case because of this, cheers.

Dear

Thank you for your email.

The loan I referred to from 1989 is listed on the Lloyds product information you provided. The loan is solely in your name and entitled “Fixed Rate P/Loan with Insce” start date 30/10/1989. Please see the document attached.

It may help to clarify that you are only able to qualify for a gold service loan if you hold a gold service account. Whilst I appreciate you have said that you did not upgrade for the gold service loans, you have said that you held fee paying accounts with Lloyds because you thought you had to. I could not agree with this argument, as the information both you and Lloyds has provided shows that you held a fee free account with Lloyds prior to 2001.

My role is to assess what is most likely to have happened in the circumstances based on all the evidence provided. As I am unable to agree with your comment that you thought you had to have the accounts, I need to review all the evidence and come to an opinion on what I consider most likely to have happened given the circumstances. I accept that I was not there when your accounts were upgraded and due to the passage of time there is limited information available.

However, whilst I accept you have explained why a number of the benefits associated with the account were not suitable for you, you have also told me that you were provided with details of the benefits and the account fee. You have provided me with a copy of the gold service welcome pack, which clearly lists the benefits and the monthly fee. Therefore, whilst there may have been some shortcomings in the way in which they were sold to you, I am not persuaded that you would have acted any differently had all the requirements been met. I say this because whilst some of the benefits were not suitable for you, as you were aware of the benefits you would have known this at the time and yet you still proceeded with the upgrade.

As you and Mrs X do not agree with my opinion, the next stage is to pass the complaint to an ombudsman for a final decision. If you want your complaint to be passed to an ombudsman for review, both you and Lloyds will have 21 days in which to provide any further information which you consider relevant to the complaint.

We can fast track complaints however the threshold for doing so is rather high. We would need evidence of a serious medical condition or severe financial hardship in order to fast track a case. Normally, as far as medical conditions are concerned, we would only fast track a complaint if the consumer was suffering from a terminal illness.

If you feel that your complaint should be fast tracked I would be grateful if you could provide me with evidence to support this. I will then pass this to my manager to review.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

It may help to clarify that you are only able to qualify for a gold service loan if you hold a gold service account. Whilst I appreciate you have said that you did not upgrade for the gold service loans, you have said that you held fee paying accounts with Lloyds because you thought you had to. I could not agree with this argument, as the information both you and Lloyds has provided shows that you held a fee free account with Lloyds prior to 2001. (Now my version): I agree we had a classic account which was classed as a fee free account prior to 2001, but as we were still being charged charges, like services charges, (okay service charges and not benefit charges) we were told it was time to upgrade to Gold Service at the end of November 2000 as a standard procedure, so being naive that is what we done, thinking the bank was doing some good for us).

My role is to assess what is most likely to have happened in the circumstances based on all the evidence provided. As I am unable to agree with your comment that you thought you had to have the accounts, I need to review all the evidence and come to an opinion on what I consider most likely to have happened given the circumstances. I accept that I was not there when your accounts were upgraded and due to the passage of time there is limited information available.

However, whilst I accept you have explained why a number of the benefits associated with the account were not suitable for you, you have also told me that you were provided with details of the benefits and the account fee. You have provided me with a copy of the gold service welcome pack, which clearly lists the benefits and the monthly fee. Therefore, whilst there may have been some shortcomings in the way in which they were sold to you, I am not persuaded that you would have acted any differently had all the requirements been met. I say this because whilst some of the benefits were not suitable for you, as you were aware of the benefits you would have known this at the time and yet you still proceeded with the upgrade. (My version): we did receive a welcome pack in the post Months down the line) because it went to the wrong address and the Adjudicator also posted a copy of it by email, the booklet was not identical so its possible lloyds posted one from another year, she raised up about extended warranty that we could have benefitted for in one of her emails and we informed her like some of the other benefits we were already covered and one of those was an extended cover warranty taken out years earlier with Lloyds as a stand along house insurance cover that also provided the same benefits on the extended warranty.

She is wondering why this was not mentioned when the gold service was upgraded or why didnt we question it! We were new to the upgrades, naive, but the point also is that despite them upgrading the accounts only one of those benefits were suitable, but she is not taking this into account.

She is not taking in the facts!
But is going by us benefitting with loans. and overdraft, even if there were shortcomings on other benefits!

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

I have to let her know Monday if she wants to start the progress now to the Ombudsman, and she said at the same time she going to have a word about fast track in my individual case due to my chronic health condition x

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

Email from my adjudicator last Friday......


Dear

Thank you for your email and for clarifying the situation with your loans.

In order to fast track complaints we do sometimes require letters from specialists and GPs explaining the extent of the condition. However I will discuss your individual situation with senior colleagues on Monday to see whether or not this would be necessary in your case.

The ombudsman queue for the packaged accounts area is not too long at the moment so if your complaint did not qualify for fast track you would probably only be waiting around two – four months for your complaint to be allocated to an ombudsman.

Would you like me to start the process now? Or would you like more time to consider whether or not you accept my findings?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

I emailed my adjudicator early this morning to say to proceed to the ombudsman......now what further info to send?? :-/

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

ok sit tight for now, I will try and get time to look at this tomorrow - if you can actually scan and email me the letter received I can check it tomorrow daytime as I can get emails through the day but I don't go online much as I am really busy at the moment.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

You have provided me with a copy of the gold service welcome pack, which clearly lists the benefits and the monthly fee. Therefore, whilst there may have been some shortcomings in the way in which they were sold to you, I am not persuaded that you would have acted any differently had all the requirements been met. I say this because whilst some of the benefits were not suitable for you, as you were aware of the benefits you would have known this at the time and yet you still proceeded with the upgrade.

why did you go and do that? Di, you've shot yourself in the foot here.....!

Ok, have you ever s.77 or SAR'd this account? If so please clarify what and when. That could save you (as we'll say the terms you sent came as part of the SAR / s.77)...

[di30]

Re: Not too good news with my packaged reclaim/FOS

why did you go and do that? Di, you've shot yourself in the foot here.....!

Ok, have you ever s.77 or SAR'd this account? If so please clarify what and when. That could save you (as we'll say the terms you sent came as part of the SAR / s.77)...

Hi Niddy

The adjudicator emailed the welcome pack to us bit by bit and asked us to clarify if it was the same one, we said "no" not the exact one, she did say that Lloyds clarified they had sent that actual one out to us, the one she sent also entailed details of an extended warranty, but I could not find anything in the booklet on that and confirmed this but did state we already had a separate cover in place that included that benefit from 1997 to 2003 that was proved to her, but still we do realise a gold account is a gold account, but what had happened was we did not actually receive the booklet in branch as it was not upgraded when we were in branch, the bank had done it and sent the booklet in the post that did get to the wrong address, we received it about 6 months later from the street next to us who had been away for 6 months.

When we SAR'd Lloyds for all data, this was over a year ago and they did sent statements going back from about 1996/97 to 2009, but we did not actually SAR for this account alone as we thought everything would have been enclosed with the full SAR Request to include all accounts held with them.

But yep I see your point about being shot in the foot lol. We were gullible then but Lloyds did tell us it was standard procedure for them to upgrade and all accounts would now be chargeable, so had little choice (a hard one to prove) and as it was not sold direct to us, the benefits were not discussed nor was it agreed, but was told it was standard practice to upgrade.