Greymatter's ue Diary

[Paul.]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

I think I am getting it Paul
So if the Debtor says I cannot ever remembering to sign any document then the Creditor must prove that the agreement is properly executed(signed)
GM

no thats not a positive assertion is it now

Did you read the HFO v Wegmuller case?

Also look at Mayhew

These cases show you need more than a simple i cant remember as the Court will say on balance cos you cant remember then i find as fact that you did but you just forgot

In wegmuller the Defendant said i signed a document but there were no Prescribed terms on the back cos i recall what was on the back and it was XXXXX

Thats the key as i say the devil is in the detail

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Hi Paul/Niddy
I see (the mist is clearing)
So I will now wait for Niddy to read my Docs that I emailed earlier.
Thanks Paul
G

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

I'll check tonight

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

OK
Thanks Niddy,I have not cancelled my payments ,yet!
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

[Quote:]
Originally Posted by greymatter
Key:Items sent in blue
Items received in red
Comments in green
Yorkshire Bank(was Vivid)
Type of account (Loan)

Date commenced (Approx 2001)

Approx Balance (£6500)

Last made a FULL payment (June 2003)
Paying by arrangement with DCA(Sutcliffe)
Default Notice issued by YB( 2003)
Account run by various DCA's(Apex,Sutcliffe,NCO,now Brunswick)
Eventually Account was purchased by Apex
04/03/2010 Letter sent by me requesting CCA(Recorded)
08/03/2010 Letter from Apex referring my request to YB.They placed my account on hold
25/03/2010 I sent Apex letter 'Failure to comply etc'
30/03/2010 Letter from Apex treating my last letter as a complaint
23/04/2010 Letter from Apex stating that they are advised by YB(NAGB)that they are unable to provide me with the number of requested documents.Therefore they are returning the account back to NABG and Apex are closing the account with Apex.
31/03/2010 I cancelled my monthly payment
20/06/2011 First statement received from YB showing old balance
08/07/2011 Chasing letter from Sutcliffes notifying me of a £20 uplift!
19/11/2011 Second statement with increased balance by £20
14/07/2011 I sent a letter reminding them of my request to Apex for CCA and their reply.I also asked them to please remove the £20 as the account is UE
They received this as I registered it and got a signature.(This was all done Pre Niddy )
I posted this initially under:Re: Charged £20 admin fee although account UE-(Under the Unenforceability section)
19/01/2012 Received letter from a new DCA Brunswick Collection Services requesting that I pay giving me various options.

So as this is U/E please advise me as to what my next move should be.
Thanks all.

23/01/12 Niddy says ignore them for now

09/02/2012 Received a DO NOT IGNORE THIS NOTICE letter this morning,from Brunswick Collection Services. In more bold they say'Legal Proceedings could result in one or all of the following consequences:Any future sale of the house could be affected....etc etc


What response ,if any ,do I need here please.

9/02/2012 I2D send them this >..........Threat by Creditor - Threat-o-Gram Letter Before Action

9/02/2012 Sent recorded

24/02/2012 Received letter from Clydesdale/Yorkshire Bank .
They have taken the above letter as a complaint etc They state that the points I have raised will be handled by one of their complaint handlers .Who will write to me when the investigation is complete,and will keep me up to date with the progress of my complaint but certainly within 4 weeks.
They would like contact me to discuss my complaint...
They have enclosed a copy of their internal complaints procedure(No they have not)
As and when I get a reply I shall post up.
Thanks
GM
[Quote:]

01/06/2012 Letter from Bruswick 'You have failed to make ay suitable arrangments etc'
Require full payment....Failure may result in legal proceedings.....

As you will see from the above diary events Brunswick were sent 'threat-o-gram.....'
This was obviously handed back (going around and around,to Clydesdale(as above)never got back to me with their findings,and now handed it back to their in house DCA.
What response should I send please,or is it an 'Ignore it' or a letter?
Thanks
GM

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

I've just spoken to Greymatter on the phone as his internet is playing up so he'll be offline for a few days.

However for clarity, to answer past questions -

YB - I confirmed that as he'd gone full circle it may be best to see what happens next as they've literally went round the whole process and are back to the start again sending the same letters.

Barclays - this is a mock-up. There is a hand written form undated for a small loan that is linked to a different product via account reference and comes with no PT's.

Basically Barclays have got confused and made this out to be an original using a reference number for a newer product that was a different loan and came with PPI. Confused? Yep, so are we

Totally

Respond with ---> Our Templates | Unenforceability Templates | CCA Query - Missing Prescribed Terms

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Hi Niddy
Thanks so much for your 'phone call.I have got my letter ready for posting Wednesday(Recorded).
My internet popped up this am for 5 mins and then died.However, its back and real zippy.
However,lets wait and see eh!
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Originally Posted by greymatter
Barclaycard MasterCard

Type of account (credit card)

Date commenced (Approx 2000)

Approx Balance (£3000)

Last made a FULL payment (June 2003)
Paying by arrangement with DCA(CSL)
Default Notice issued by Mercers acting as agents for BC(Sep 2003)
Account run by CSL

I will be requesting CCA by recorded delivery Monday 13th Feb 2012 and will update my diary when I receive anything.

Key:sent
received
other information

I left this response report until they had enough time to respond:

21/02/2012 Received letter from DCA informing me that they are referring this request to their client for copy documentation.

06/03/2012 As of today I still have not received anything. So I will stop payment before the due date and would this now be considered until they turn up the necessary docs?

03/04/2012 Still not received anything for this account .I have of course stopped payment .
Should I just sit tight?
My other diary for Barclays Select #72 is exacxtly the same.No response but payment definately stopped.
Sit tight here too?
03/04/2012 I2D just sit tight.....they are in defult of your CCA request....

21/05/2012 Received letter from BC account now passed to Robinson Way to manage collection.... they ask me to contact them as a matter of urgency!!!

CSL/BC have not supplied my CCA but CSL acknowledged receiving my request and have passed on to BC.However no CCA forthcoming.What is the best course of action ,ignore and wait or sold in dispute?

21/05/2012 Thanks Pixie.However the letter from BC has a black and white logo and the only address is Robinson Way in the main body of the letter.
Its signed but no address.
I'm not completely sure of the right address to respond to,although I have the writers name and position.
What do you recommend here or should I wait for RW to get in touch and hit them with the sold in dispute letter?

22/05/2012 I got a tel call today from RW I said put it in writing.I hung up.

I realised that the so-called BC letter I received yesterday was actually sent from RW as the address on the envelope(Saved and filed)gave RW address.
Is this the normal practice that the OC allows the DCA to use their logo and by this token are being bloody devious?

26/05/12 Letter from Robbersway 'Threat-O-Gram' A formal demand for payment They telephoned everyday but I did not pick up.
(In Caps!!)

This is where CSL wrote to me in Feb 2012 referring to BC for copy docs.Never got anything.
Whats the best course of action for this please?

22/05/2012 I2D..If it was me I Would send --------> Account Sold whilst in Dispute

26/05/2012 Letter sent recorded..and received.[COLOR=#000000]

08/06/2012 Letter from RWay 'Making enquiries ..in the meantime all collection activity will stop'
So now I will wait and see!
GM

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

[COLOR=#5d5d5d][FONT=Verdana]

08/06/2012 Letter from RWay 'Making enquiries ..in the meantime all collection activity will stop'
So now I will wait and see!
GM

nice one, keep us updated

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Will do
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Quote:
Originally Posted by greymatter
Its time to go for this one as I have not had a statement since early 2005.
Barclay Resolve
Type of account (Loan Account)
Date commenced ( 2002)
Approx Balance (£13600)
Last made a FULL payment (July 2003)
Paying by arrangement with DCA(CDCS)
Default Notice issued by Barclays(Feb 2004)
Account run by CDCS
Key:sent
received
other information

I am paying a small token payment and have not had contact since early 2005.However this will go for ever and the SB date will just keep moving out.I am concerned however that the CCA request could stir up interest charges and the like.However this site has given me confidence and if I don't act now I will have this bloody millstone around my neck till I die--and then some!
As a matter of interest CDCS have got the amount outstanding and references wrong.They have mixed them with a different debt!
Greymatter

15/05/2012 Special delivery CCA requested



Hi Niddy

31/05/2012 Letter received from Barclays and they have in the first place stated:'Sec 77 and 78 of the CCA1974(as amended) do not require Barclays Bank to provide you with a signed original form of the agreement and .......not the policy of Barclays Bank to provide this'
They are however pleased to provide me with a copy of the agreement and financial statement as the Act does not require them to supply me with a signed original'

However what they sent me was a set of TC's with figures filled in and various other hand filled details.This Agreement is not the one that I wrote for and the amount shown as outstanding and their explanation is also completely wrong.They have got the loans mixed up but have cobbled together a letter showing£13000+in arrears with an agreement of some £2000+ That would be some interest!!
What letter should I send as basically they cannot supply the original and have t'cs hand written and no date.
Thanks
GM

I've just spoken to Greymatter on the phone as his internet is playing up so he'll be offline for a few days.

However for clarity, to answer past questions -
YB - I confirmed that as he'd gone full circle it may be best to see what happens next as they've literally went round the whole process and are back to the start again sending the same letters.
Barclays - this is a mock-up. There is a hand written form undated for a small loan that is linked to a different product via account reference and comes with no PT's.
Basically Barclays have got confused and made this out to be an original using a reference number for a newer product that was a different loan and came with PPI. Confused? Yep, so are we
Totally
Respond with ---> Our Templates | Unenforceability Templates | CCA Query - Missing Prescribed Terms

21/06/12 Letter rec'd from Barcs they are looking into my concerns and will contact me asap.(Within 3 weeks)

I will update when/if I receive something.
Greymatter

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Quote:
Originally Posted by greymatter
Its time to go for this one as I have not had a statement since early 2005.
Barclay Resolve
Type of account (Loan Account)
Date commenced ( 2002)
Approx Balance (£13600)
Last made a FULL payment (July 2003)
Paying by arrangement with DCA(CDCS)
Default Notice issued by Barclays(Feb 2004)
Account run by CDCS
Key:sent
received
other information

I am paying a small token payment and have not had contact since early 2005.However this will go for ever and the SB date will just keep moving out.I am concerned however that the CCA request could stir up interest charges and the like.However this site has given me confidence and if I don't act now I will have this bloody millstone around my neck till I die--and then some!
As a matter of interest CDCS have got the amount outstanding and references wrong.They have mixed them with a different debt!
Greymatter

15/05/2012 Special delivery CCA requested



Hi Niddy

31/05/2012 Letter received from Barclays and they have in the first place stated:'Sec 77 and 78 of the CCA1974(as amended) do not require Barclays Bank to provide you with a signed original form of the agreement and .......not the policy of Barclays Bank to provide this'
They are however pleased to provide me with a copy of the agreement and financial statement as the Act does not require them to supply me with a signed original'

However what they sent me was a set of TC's with figures filled in and various other hand filled details.This Agreement is not the one that I wrote for and the amount shown as outstanding and their explanation is also completely wrong.They have got the loans mixed up but have cobbled together a letter showing£13000+in arrears with an agreement of some £2000+ That would be some interest!!
What letter should I send as basically they cannot supply the original and have t'cs hand written and no date.
Thanks
GM


21/06/12 Letter rec'd from Barcs they are looking into my concerns and will contact me asap.(Within 3 weeks)

I will update when/if I receive something.
Greymatter

Hi Niddy/I2D

23/06/12 Received letter and the main part of their reply is as follows'However we would refer you to the definition of' copy' within sec 189 CCA which states 'Regulations may be made as to the form and content of the documents to be issued as copies of any executed agreement.........'it goes on to state'Regulation 3(2) states ''There may be omitted from any such (true)copy..any signature box,signature or date of signature'' They also say that their compliance with the Act does not entitle me to make any assumption as regards the existence of the agreement,so they will continue with normal debt recovery.They are also aware of schedule 6 of CCA to which I refer to in my letter.
So what would be the best thing for me to do,do I need to reply and should I stop my token payment at this moment ?
Thanks
GM

[Paul.]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Hi Niddy/I2D

23/06/12 Received letter and the main part of their reply is as follows'However we would refer you to the definition of' copy' within sec 189 CCA which states 'Regulations may be made as to the form and content of the documents to be issued as copies of any executed agreement.........'it goes on to state'Regulation 3(2) states ''There may be omitted from any such (true)copy..any signature box,signature or date of signature'' They also say that their compliance with the Act does not entitle me to make any assumption as regards the existence of the agreement,so they will continue with normal debt recovery.They are also aware of schedule 6 of CCA to which I refer to in my letter.
So what would be the best thing for me to do,do I need to reply and should I stop my token payment at this moment ?
Thanks
GM

They are 100% correct about reg 3, and the omission of the signature etc.

Did you sign an agreement when the account was opened? this is the single most important question you will ever get asked in this question.

Did you open the acc over the phone? did the bank just debit the funds to your account? or did they send you an agreement to sign and return? did you sign it and return it?

[greymatter]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Hi Paul
As far as I can recall(2000) I had a discussion with the Bank Manager in my office and I do not recall signing a document and the money was transferred to my account.However what they have sent me is not correct as the amount and the agreement do not tie up.(As previous post)
Also I realise that if I were to take any action then sec 3 would kick in,however if they take action then as I understand it they must prove enforceability

GM

[Paul.]

Re: Greymatter's ue Diary

Hi Paul
As far as I can recall(2000) I had a discussion with the Bank Manager in my office and I do not recall signing a document and the money was transferred to my account.However what they have sent me is not correct as the amount and the agreement do not tie up.(As previous post)
Also I realise that if I were to take any action then sec 3 would kick in,however if they take action then as I understand it they must prove enforceability

GM

No, not quite,

They must prove there was an agreement, the burden shifts then to the debtor to make an assertion as to what is wrong with the agreement etc

then its for the Creditor to prove the agreement is compliant

So moving to the factual issue itself, I start briefly with a matter upon which I have
received some submissions, namely the burden of proof. In submissions the defendant
conceded that there was a prima facia case established by the claimant that there was a
credit agreement in place and therefore the evidential burden of proving the index factual
issue is upon the claimant. I was referred to a first instance case in the County Court of

HFO Services Limited v Kirit Patel

. It was decided by His Honour Judge Platt on 20th May
2009. Of course, I accept that this is a first instance decision and is therefore only
persuasive. Nevertheless, I found the judgment of His Honour Judge Platt to be persuasive
in that way and I would wish to take the same approach.


19. His Honour Judge Platt said at paragraph 19:

“Therefore, in my judgment, when the defendant wishes to rely on section 65, several
consequences flow. First, it is not sufficient for him simply to allege that the
agreement is not properly executed. He must specify the particular breach or
breaches of the Regulation on which he relies. The burden of proving that the
agreement has been properly executed then rests with the claimant. It is his
obligation to put before the Court evidence which he considers sufficient to satisfy

the Court on this issue.”

The above is from HFO v Wegmuller, the judge refers to the issue of shifting burdens and refers to HHJ Platts ruling which accords with Carey v HSBC