SarahSarah Diary: UE and negotiating settlements

[The Tech Clerk]

Moorcroft are only debt collection agents from an office hoping to get any commissions if they collect, they could get Resolve call to call and try their luck , you would only have to say go away and they will - end of. Moorcroft would have to pay for the visit, so Moorcroft I suggest is a no, do not visit premises sometimes work and sometimes not depends on the company concerned,,

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Is the general theory with Moorcroft to ignore them or send a "Don't visit me" letter?

You could do either really.

This forum has a Doorstep Template letter if you want to nip this in the bud to avoid any awkwardness if they do call at your home.

Di

[The Tech Clerk]

Harassment & Threat of Doorstep-Visit

[SarahSarah]

Thanks both Diana Mayhew and The Tech Clerk

I have since received letters from RBS concerning the debts with them, saying that they have also now passed them on to Moorcroft.

The gist I get from this forum is that Moorcroft tend to scoop up the dregs but then give up pretty easily. Does anyone have direct experience of them? Is my synopsis generally correct?

[The Tech Clerk]

They are only commission collectors = if you pay them, as before ignore unless it gets passed on again then let us know

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I have since received letters from RBS concerning the debts with them, saying that they have also now passed them on to Moorcroft.

The gist I get from this forum is that Moorcroft tend to scoop up the dregs but then give up pretty easily.

What happens next will be 'debt specific' since you are referring to more than one account.

Actions taken (or not) are usually based on a commercial decision. For example if you are referring to your £17k loan then they may take a different view than they would a debt of a smaller balance.

Have they complied with your s77/79 CCA Requests for these debts?

Debt Collection Agencies have a fairly automated process. Template letters are sent out with escalating 'threat levels'. If the DCA doesn't recover any money from the debtor they will normally return it to the creditor or debt owner who decides what steps to take next.

The most likely scenario is the debt will eventually it will be assigned to a debt purchaser.

Di

[SarahSarah]

• Halifax
• Credit card
• Approx 2002
• £1,100
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to date.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Defaulted. Now dropped off credit file.
• Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd

I requested the CCA and this debt is currently considered UE by Cabot. Last settlement offer from them was £700.

Update June 18: Cancelled DMP. Payments no longer being made to this account.
July 18: Sent SAR to BOS (nee Halifax).
Update July 18: First letter from Cabot after cancelling DMP. Suggesting Step Change. Saying account now on hold for 14 days.
early Aug 18: received a response to SAR asking to sign my original letter. I have signed with a signature different to the one I used in 2002.
September 18: Received a statement of account showing 3 months with zero paid.
May 19: Letter from Cabot saying they have failed to make contact so will instruct "a company called Moorcroft to try to arrange a visit at your home to that they can put you back in touch with us". They go on to say they would rather speak to me within the next 7 days "or you'll receive a visit from Moorcroft".
Jul 19: Letter from Moorcroft saying they may pay me a visit if I don't call to arrange payment. The standard letter.
Aug 19: Letter from Moorcroft saying they will pay me a visit on a specific date. I have sent the harassment / doorstop template letter.

[SarahSarah]

• Royal Bank of Scotland
• Loan
• Jan 2007
• £17K
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to June 18.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Delinquent
• AIC then Zinc Group Ltd then Moorcroft

I requested the CCA and received a "True Copy", no signed photocopy.

update June 18: Niddy reckons this one is unenforceable, no signed agreement. They say in their letter they are only obliged to send a true copy - is there a template I can use to ask again? I may fall into an actual faint if this whoppa is UE!
Update June 18: reckons this one is UE as there is no signed agreement. Is the "Missing prescribed terms" template appropriate here? I'm confused as they refer in their letter to the doc they sent being a "True Copy" and the template asks for a true copy. Pic of letter attached along with a response from RBS saying that AIC will be collecting the debt "on their behalf". Is this a nice way of saying they have sold the debt and no longer have anything to do with it?
Diana Mayhew
Update 30th June 18: Changed from Defaulted to Active. I had this wrong previously, apologies. Thought it had defaulted with all the others.
July 18: Sent SAR to RBOS.
July 18: Letter from AIC asking to call to arrange payment as DM cancelled.
Sept 18: Letter from RBS saying that they have been unable to reach an agreement with me so the account has been passed to Allied International to act as collection agent. Confusing as it's been with Allied for years. On my credit file, this account was delinquent for years, then randomly changed to payments up to date for a few months then went into delinquency again. Is there any detrimental effect (any worse than 72+ months of delinquency!) to this bizarre scoring?
Feb 19: Letter from RBS saying their previous collection agency has failed to agree a management plan with me so it has now been passed to a new collection agent - Zinc Group Ltd.
March 19: Zinc sent a welcome letter.
April 19: Zinc Credit Management wrote to say they will have not choice but to consider legal proceedings if they don't hear from me.
July 19: RBS wrote to say they have now passed the debt on to Moorcroft.
Aug: 19: Intro letter and follow up "we haven't heard from you" letters from Moorcroft. Filed.

[The Tech Clerk]

they do try bless them not Moorcroft

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

• Royal Bank of Scotland
• Loan
• Jan 2007
• £17K
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to June 18.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Delinquent
• AIC then Zinc Group Ltd then Moorcroft

I requested the CCA and received a "True Copy", no signed photocopy.

update June 18: Niddy reckons this one is unenforceable, no signed agreement. They say in their letter they are only obliged to send a true copy - is there a template I can use to ask again? I may fall into an actual faint if this whoppa is UE!
Update June 18: reckons this one is UE as there is no signed agreement. Is the "Missing prescribed terms" template appropriate here? I'm confused as they refer in their letter to the doc they sent being a "True Copy" and the template asks for a true copy. Pic of letter attached along with a response from RBS saying that AIC will be collecting the debt "on their behalf". Is this a nice way of saying they have sold the debt and no longer have anything to do with it?
Diana Mayhew
Update 30th June 18: Changed from Defaulted to Active. I had this wrong previously, apologies. Thought it had defaulted with all the others.
July 18: Sent SAR to RBOS.
July 18: Letter from AIC asking to call to arrange payment as DM cancelled.
Sept 18: Letter from RBS saying that they have been unable to reach an agreement with me so the account has been passed to Allied International to act as collection agent. Confusing as it's been with Allied for years. On my credit file, this account was delinquent for years, then randomly changed to payments up to date for a few months then went into delinquency again. Is there any detrimental effect (any worse than 72+ months of delinquency!) to this bizarre scoring?
Feb 19: Letter from RBS saying their previous collection agency has failed to agree a management plan with me so it has now been passed to a new collection agent - Zinc Group Ltd.
March 19: Zinc sent a welcome letter.
April 19: Zinc Credit Management wrote to say they will have not choice but to consider legal proceedings if they don't hear from me.
July 19: RBS wrote to say they have now passed the debt on to Moorcroft.
Aug: 19: Intro letter and follow up "we haven't heard from you" letters from Moorcroft. Filed.

So this debt is still with the original creditor Royal Bank of Scotland.

No need to respond to Moorcroft's letter - you did the right thing by simply filing it

Di

[SarahSarah]

• Bank Of Scotland then Lloyds TSB
• Credit card
• Approx 2001
• £6k
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to date.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Defaulted. Now dropped off credit file.
• PRA Group

I requested the CCA and this debt was deemed UE by PRA Group. A few months later, I received a signed credit agreement. Not sure if that now makes this enforceable??

update June 18: Niddy has seen the signed agreement and says that this one is enforceable. I’ll try and settle it, any experience with PRA Group anyone??
Update 30 June 18: Cancelled DMP. Payments no longer being made to this account.
July 18: Sent SAR to BOS.
July 18: The calls have started, recording telling me PRA Group are trying to get in touch.
early August: Changed my mobile number.
early Sept: Letter from PRA saying that if I don’t call to set up a payment plan, they may pursue me via the county court. Gave me 14 days to respond, which I haven’t.
October 18: I have now received a Letter Before Claim from PRA Group. It includes the box A-G form and and Income & Expenditure form. I have already sent a CCA to PRA and Niddy believes the agreement to be enforceable. Not sure what my next move should be? Particularly interested in what you have to say Di as I know you know PRA well.
November 18: Di Mayhew has looked at the credit agreement they returned to me and has pointed out a few things that may make it unenforceable. I've responded to PRA with the completed form, ticking box D disputing that I owe the debt. Let's see what they come back with.
Feb 19: PRA sent an agreement which looks to be reconstituted
March 19: Letter from PRA advising they will continue to take this matter to court and issue proceedings in accordance with the Pre Action Protocol within the next 15 days. Diana Mayhew I have sent you copies of both of these letters (Feb & March).
Sept 19: PRA have sent another Letter Before Claim. I have responded saying that I returned their form in October 2018 and my position remains unchanged - I do not intend to return the form again, please do not send further letters.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

You've made your position clear twice.

If PRA are intent on issuing a claim then they will, no matter what you say.

Don't ask them for any further documentation in case they source it.

When was this debt assigned to PRA?

It might be a good time to send a Subject Access Request to Lloyds to see what data and documents are held in their files.

Di

[SarahSarah]

You've made your position clear twice.

If PRA are intent on issuing a claim then they will, no matter what you say.

Don't ask them for any further documentation in case they source it.

When was this debt assigned to PRA?

It might be a good time to send a Subject Access Request to Lloyds to see what data and documents are held in their files.

Di

I have sent an SAR to BOS, who were the original lender. No response. Should I send one now to Lloyds? I've never actually had anything from Lloyds TSB. The first I knew they had merged with BOS was when Blair, Oliver and Scott started writing to me. But at the time, I was with a DMC, so it's all a bit murky as I was under the impression they were looking after everything for me!

In response to CCA request, PRA have twice sent the same reconstituted agreement (You've seen this, pointed out lots of lovely errors and weren't too worried).

[SarahSarah]

When was this debt assigned to PRA?


Di

BOS assigned it to Aktiv Kapital Portfolio AS in 2013. My DMC then advised it has been assigned to Active Capital (UK) Ltd. PRA Group (UK) Ltd then advised Aktiv Kapital Portfolio AS had assigned it to them in 2015.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

BOS assigned it to Aktiv Kapital Portfolio AS in 2013. My DMC then advised it has been assigned to Active Capital (UK) Ltd. PRA Group (UK) Ltd then advised Aktiv Kapital Portfolio AS had assigned it to them in 2015.

So if a claim is issued PRA will have to prove the whole assignment chain which is something they've been known to find a struggle, as in the case of PRA v Diana Mayhew >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di