SarahSarah Diary: UE and negotiating settlements

[SarahSarah]

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• Royal Bank of Scotland
• Loan & Overdraft
• Jan 2007
• £17K
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to June 18.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• 6+ late payments
• Currently Moorcroft

Nov 07: Joined a Debt Management Company who negotiated small repayments.
Oct 11: Experian credit report status is "6 payments late". Special Instruction indicator: "Arrangment".
Mar 12: "Formal Notice of intention to file a default and to take court action to recover the debt". DMC then spoke with RBS and told me I was fine for another year. No court action was taken. I don't know if the account was defaulted.
Oct 12: Letter from RBS "... you have failed to comply with the requirements set out in the recent Default Notice/ Termination Notice(s) served against you... We are terminating all banking facilities". I don't know if this means it was actually defaulted.
Nov 12: Letter from RBS saying account details have been passed to AIC (Allied International Credit (UK) Ltd) to act as collection agent.
Dec 12: Intro letter from AIC.
Mar 13: Letter from AIC - early settlement offer with no figure. I did call them but no settlement figure was within reach for me.
During this time I spoke with AIC a few times over the phone to try and get a settlement figure. No luck.
Feb 15: Wrote to RBS to see if there was a chance of settling, they wrote back saying thanks, please deal with AIC.
Jun 17: Wrote to AIC asking for CCA. They responded saying it's RBS responsibility, passed on to them.
Sept 17: Chased AIC for CCA, they say they are still awaiting a response from RBS.
Sept 17: Experian credit report lists this account as "over 6 late payments".
Oct 17: I requested the CCA and received a "True Copy", no signed photocopy.
Jan 18: Wrote to RBS offering settlement. No response.

Jun 18: FOUND AAD! Hallelujah!

June 18: Niddy reckons this one is unenforceable, no signed agreement. They say in their letter they are only obliged to send a true copy - is there a template I can use to ask again? I may fall into an actual faint if this whoppa is UE!

June18: Niddy reckons this one is UE as there is no signed agreement. Is the "Missing prescribed terms" template appropriate here? I'm confused as they refer in their letter to the doc they sent being a "True Copy" and the template asks for a true copy. Pic of letter attached along with a response from RBS saying that AIC will be collecting the debt "on their behalf". Is this a nice way of saying they have sold the debt and no longer have anything to do with it?


Update 30th June 18: Changed from Defaulted to Active. I had this wrong previously, apologies. Thought it had defaulted with all the others.
July 18: Sent SAR to RBOS.
July 18: Letter from AIC asking to call to arrange payment as DM cancelled.
Sept 18: Letter from RBS saying that they have been unable to reach an agreement with me so the account has been passed to Allied International to act as collection agent. Confusing as it's been with Allied for years. On my credit file, this account was delinquent for years, then randomly changed to payments up to date for a few months then went into delinquency again. Is there any detrimental effect (any worse than 72+ months of delinquency!) to this bizarre scoring?
Feb 19: Letter from RBS saying their previous collection agency has failed to agree a management plan with me so it has now been passed to a new collection agent - Zinc Group Ltd.
March 19: Zinc sent a welcome letter.
April 19: Zinc Credit Management wrote to say they will have not choice but to consider legal proceedings if they don't hear from me.
July 19: RBS wrote to say they have now passed the debt on to Moorcroft.
Aug: 19: Intro letter and follow up "we haven't heard from you" letters from Moorcroft. Filed.
Sept 19: Monthly Instalment Offer letter from Moorcroft. Threatening to "recommence collection activity" if no response within 7 days.
Sept 19: Letter from Moorcroft saying they may pay me a visit if I don't call to arrange payment. The standard letter.
Sept 19: Sent the do not visit letter.
Oct 19: Moorcroft have sent a letter saying thank you for confirming you will only communicate in writing, please fill in the attached expenditure form.
Nov 19: Moorcroft sent an "Our field agent will visit you on this date". I sent another do not visit letter.
Nov 19: Moorcroft visited when I wasn't in.
Nov 19: Sent a letter saying I am still waiting on CCA and SAR.
Nov 19: Moorcroft wrote to say they acknowledge I have raised a query and will not contact me again while it is being investigated.
Nov 19: Moorcroft sent a letter saying they can't provide the SAR, have handed it to RBS. Also suggest giving a reason for the request so RBS can assist me fully.
Nov 19: (Probably shouldn't have but) Asked Experian to correct my credit report to reflect that the account defaulted in Oct 2012. They said they spoke to RBS who ask me to contact them directly.
Dec 19: Statement of fees received for the overdraft account.
Dec 19: RBS write re SAR asking for proof of identity and to clarify what info I would like along with account numbers. They've made me wait over a year, so I think I'll make them wait a little... My plan of action is to send ID and ask for everything they have relating to me at my address. I won't give account numbers.
Jan 20: RBS write and give short deadline to provide proof of ID. I haven't made the deadline so will wait to see what happens.
Jan 20: Moorcroft write to suggest I get in touch to agree a payment schedule. No threats in this round yet.
Feb 20: Moorcroft write to say they will continue to write to me, may schedule a visit. Can they keep doing that after the do not visit letter?
Feb 20: Moorcroft write to say this has been passed to Home Collection Division and may visit. Also "our client has informed us that we may be able to offer a substantial discount".
Mar 20: With the help of Niddy, I am challenging Experian, Equifax and Trans Union to amend my credit file which still shows this as late payments rather than defaulted in 2012.
Sept 20: I started the quest to amend my credit file with Experian, they basically wouldn't do anything and advised me to conact RBS. Lots of chat with Niddy, I got too worried that I would poke the hornets nest so didn't approach RBS directly to amend my credit file.
Sept 20: Letter from RBS, which looks like a "we're about to sell your debt" letter... Says that I am still liable and they would like to work with me, they also reserve the right to take further action to recover the debt, which "may include the sale of your debt to a third party, who will then be entitled to pursue you for the debt".
Nov 20: strange things happening on my credit file... On Clearscore, this account was defaulted in Sept 20. It did show 2 recent months of "on time" payments but they have now been removed. The balance has now also gone down to £9.5k (It had been showing £13k for a few years). Last Moorcroft letter (Feb 20) still has it at £17k
July 23: Heard nothing on this since Sept 20.

So, I have heard nothing from anyone on this account since Sept 2020. The account seemed to be defaulted by RBS in 2012 but I continued to pay via a DMP until June 2018. I had incorrect notices on my credit file of "Up to date" in early 2018 and then delinquent again and then showing as default again in late 2020. So my question is, does anyone know for sure whether it's what date shows as a default on your credit file, or the date of your last payment that started the SB clock? I ask because it's the difference of 2 years, which would really help knowing. The fact that I have heard nothing at all from RBS in 3 years leads me to believe it has been sold or written off in some way.

[Pat]

Ok so technically I believe it is the remedy date of the S87(1) default notice OR the last payment OR the last acknowledgement. Whichever is the latest date. As you have a letter saying everything was terminated in 2012 it will be the last payment or acknowledgement.

[SarahSarah]

Ok so technically I believe it is the remedy date of the S87(1) default notice OR the last payment OR the last acknowledgement. Whichever is the latest date. As you have a letter saying everything was terminated in 2012 it will be the last payment or acknowledgement.

Thanks for your response. So the credit report is kind of irrelevant?

[Still Waving]

Originally posted by Pat View Post

Ok so technically I believe it is the remedy date of the S87(1) default notice OR the last payment OR the last acknowledgement. Whichever is the latest date. As you have a letter saying everything was terminated in 2012 it will be the last payment or acknowledgement.

Thanks for your response. So the credit report is kind of irrelevant?

The credit report is not the real determinant when it comes to calculating when SB will occur. As Pat says, you have (kept I hope), a letter informing you that banking facility has been cancelled. On that basis, June 2018, when you stopped paying, would seem to be the relevant date, providing you have not acknowledged in some other way since then.

EDIT: I do wonder about two subsequent entries -

"Nov 19: Sent a letter saying I am still waiting on CCA and SAR.

Nov 19: (Probably shouldn't have but) Asked Experian to correct my credit report to reflect that the account defaulted in Oct 2012. They said they spoke to RBS who ask me to contact them directly."

Certainly that last item seems likely that it could be deemed to have acknowledged the debt. In which case that would affect the SB date.


You have heard nothing for getting on towards 3 years, which is positive from your point of view. The thing to do now is to keep a low profile. Don't be proactive, only reactive, and then only after asking for suggestions here.

[Still Waving]

Further to my previous post, I'm concerned about the following entries too -

"Mar 20: With the help of Niddy, I am challenging Experian, Equifax and Trans Union to amend my credit file which still shows this as late payments rather than defaulted in 2012.

Sept 20: I started the quest to amend my credit file with Experian, they basically wouldn't do anything and advised me to conact RBS. Lots of chat with Niddy, I got too worried that I would poke the hornets nest so didn't approach RBS directly to amend my credit file."

I don't know what form the challenge took, and whether it acknowledged the debt. It may be that Niddy took the view that, as it was unenforceable, it didn't matter to be seen to acknowledge it. I just don't know. Perhaps you are clear about that point? If it did acknowledge the debt, then SB date is pushed back further.

[Roger]

If the Debt had been Assigned this would show on the Credit Agencies Reports and if these are still RBS then it hasn't been sold!
Probably because its UE.


June18: Niddy reckons this one is UE as there is no signed agreement. (note their letter to the doc they sent being a "True Copy" BECAUSE THEY KNOW ITS UE)
The AAD advice with this would have been SILENCE no contact post any letters recieved here for advice!

IN MY OPINION YOU HAVE BEEN TO PRO ACTIVE HERE! MOST LIKELY UNNECESSARILY RESTARTING THE STATUTE BAR CLOCK
LOOK IF YOU HAD SAT ON YOUR HANDS June 18 Statue Bar July 24.

Look July 23: Heard nothing on this since Sept 20.
Instead it seems you have possibly restarted the clock on Sept 20 to NOW Oct 26


I would personally seek legal advice over these continuing Report Agencies entries!
Especially if as Niddy thought its UE!
Contact JCS first interview is FREE

Because if these are still being reported this is to the detriment of your Credit!

"..
Oct 12: Letter from RBS "... you have failed to comply with the requirements set out in the recent Default Notice/ Termination Notice(s) served against you... We are terminating all banking facilities" .."

On this basis the Credit Agency reports should have started what NOV 12 and ended say NOV 18 (thats for a Oct 12 Default plus say 1 month hence NOV 12 )

RIGHT NOW I WOULD STRONGLY SUGGEST SILENCE !!!!
But consider contacting JCS

[Still Waving]

Apart from at the very start of trying to get my debt situation into a manageable state, I have never looked at the CRAs, so it was one less thing to concern myself with. Even now, years after becoming SB, I don't look at them, - but then, I am not looking for more credit.

[SarahSarah]

If the Debt had been Assigned this would show on the Credit Agencies Reports and if these are still RBS then it hasn't been sold!
Probably because its UE.


June18: Niddy reckons this one is UE as there is no signed agreement. (note their letter to the doc they sent being a "True Copy" BECAUSE THEY KNOW ITS UE)
The AAD advice with this would have been SILENCE no contact post any letters recieved here for advice!

IN MY OPINION YOU HAVE BEEN TO PRO ACTIVE HERE! MOST LIKELY UNNECESSARILY RESTARTING THE STATUTE BAR CLOCK
LOOK IF YOU HAD SAT ON YOUR HANDS June 18 Statue Bar July 24.

Look July 23: Heard nothing on this since Sept 20.
Instead it seems you have possibly restarted the clock on Sept 20 to NOW Oct 26

I know, I know!

Niddy and I had a lot of back and forth about this, he drafted letters to both Experian and RBS for me but I decided the risk outweighed the reward. I'm keen to get on the housing ladder as soon as possible which is why I was being proactive. I have just downloaded a copy of my credit file from Check My File and it has more info on it... It shows the date of default as Sept 2020. So, it looks like I'm looking at late 2026...

The lesson then, STAY QUIET PEOPLE!

I would personally seek legal advice over these continuing Report Agencies entries!
Especially if as Niddy thought its UE!
Contact JCS first interview is FREE

I've used JCS before, they were very helpful and sorted out a PRA threat. I didn't realise they could help with credit agency reports, and assume it would hold the same risk - Does anyone have experience of challenging a credit agency via a solicitor?


P.S. What of Di Mayhew? She was great.

[Pat]

I am not convinced that contacting the CRA will reset the statute barred clock. To the best of my knowledge this has not been tested. The major test was PRA versus Doyle, which said that limitations started from the expiration date on the default notice then of course there was the Supreme Court ruling that said a default notice could be reconstituted from records.

[Night Monkey]

...but I decided the risk outweighed the reward

Don't beat yourself up, we take what seems the best decision we can at the time, roll the dice & see what plays out. 2026 will come round soon enough.

[Still Waving]

I am not convinced that contacting the CRA will reset the statute barred clock. To the best of my knowledge this has not been tested. The major test was PRA versus Doyle, which said that limitations started from the expiration date on the default notice then of course there was the Supreme Court ruling that said a default notice could be reconstituted from records.

"Nov 19: (Probably shouldn't have but) Asked Experian to correct my credit report to reflect that the account defaulted in Oct 2012. They said they spoke to RBS who ask me to contact them directly."

That, arguably, is acknowledgment of the debt.

[Pat]

My point was, I am not sure a second hand acknowledgment counts. Now Sarah doesn’t say if they contacted RBS but if they didn’t ..,

As you say ..arguably - as I said, to my knowledge never been tested. I think it would be a very steep hill to climb for RBS.

Let’s work on the premise that it wasn’t an acknowledgment- that doesn’t mean at 6 years and one day you say haha I’ve done you. At that point silence is indeed not just Holden but essential.

[Roger]

I see two issues
1/ The detrimental continuing of CRA's reporting beyond what I would have expected !
".. Oct 12: Letter from RBS "... you have failed to comply with the requirements set out in the recent Default Notice/ Termination Notice(s) served against you... We are terminating all banking facilities" .."
On this basis the Credit Agency reports should have started what NOV 12 and ended say NOV 18 (thats for a Oct 12 Default plus say 1 month hence NOV 12 )

Because you refer to Nov 20!! and curious entry's with varying values AND a very curious entry about DEFAULTED in SEPT 2020?
Nov 20: strange things happening on my credit file... On Clearscore, this account was defaulted in Sept 20. It did show 2 recent months of "on time" payments but they have now been removed. The balance has now also gone down to £9.5k (It had been showing £13k for a few years).

There is CASE Law that says if and while the Account is known to be UE it shouldn't be reported!

2/ Two or One Account? If Consolidated this can be fatal to UE!

What I noted but have keep quite about is are these two separate accounts or has RBS consolidated two separate Debts
1/ Loan
2/ Overdraft

We know the RBS group of Banks was reconsituted following the Bank Crisis! So are these RBS or other banks now under the RBS umbrella

• Royal Bank of Scotland
• Loan & Overdraft
• Jan 2007

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE CRA'S REPORTING IS AND CONTINUES TO DAMAGE YOUR CREDIT!
IRONICALLY THIS IS MORE OF AN ISSUE THAT STATUTE BAR!
IF YOU RAISE AN ISSUE ON A REPORTED CRA ENTRY IN YOUR NAME - LOGICALLY YOU ARE ADMITTING THAT DEBT!

This why I say perhaps have a word with JCS perhaps your entry "..June18: Niddy reckons this one is UE as there is no signed agreement. .."
See if UE this could be the solution to the CRA's and Statute Bar!

[Pat]

There is CASE Law that says if and while the Account is known to be UE it shouldn't be reported!



What I noted but have keep quite about is are these two separate accounts or has RBS consolidated two separate Debts
1/ Loan
2/ Overdraft


See if UE this could be the solution to the CRA's and Statute Bar!

Roger makes some valid points - it maybe that the fact the two debts have been combined is the fatal flaw. The lack of a signed agreement is not necessarily fatal even for an old account- there is lower court rulings that suggest if the the claimant can prove on the balance of probabilities one was signed, they are home and dry.

I also agree about the case law that should be interpreted to say a UE account should not be reported- my understanding is that it doesn't spell it out in quite such simplified terms but it does say it ( thanks to the sadly married Tom Brennan Banks for that info). However I am not sure it is enough to say it is UE or even for the creditor to admit it is UE- maybe it needs a court to rule it is UE?

I think if it were me I would sit this out, not reply, not make an offer, wait until it is all sorted and SB before you go after the CRA. It maybe that they stop reporting and it falls off anyway.

[Roger]

Roger makes some valid points - it maybe that the fact the two debts have been combined is the fatal flaw. The lack of a signed agreement is not necessarily fatal even for an old account- there is lower court rulings that suggest if the the claimant can prove on the balance of probabilities one was signed, they are home and dry.

I also agree about the case law that should be interpreted to say a UE account should not be reported- my understanding is that it doesn't spell it out in quite such simplified terms but it does say it ( thanks to the sadly married Tom Brennan Banks for that info). However I am not sure it is enough to say it is UE or even for the creditor to admit it is UE- maybe it needs a court to rule it is UE?

I think if it were me I would sit this out, not reply, not make an offer, wait until it is all sorted and SB before you go after the CRA. It maybe that they stop reporting and it falls off anyway.

Exactly this is the point set out by Pat

1/ Silence AND patience sit this out! Until you are sure SB taking a pessimistic Date!

2/ The alternative I think you would need legal advice