SarahSarah Diary: UE and negotiating settlements

[SarahSarah]

Hi all,

Apologies for starting a new thread, I couldn't rename the last one as a diary.

I've spent a long time looking over various posts regarding UE but I'm still unsure what my next step should be and wonder if someone wouldn't mind advising... ?

I have been on a DMP for 10 years (they no longer charge me as I reached the limit). I have debt of around £25k over 5 creditors, 3 of which turn out to be unenforceable. I am trying to save up to negotiate a settlement to the large enforceable one of £18k but am not exactly sure what to do about the unenforceable debts. I can't simply ignore them can I? I've been reliably paying via the DMP for years and have also tried every year to negotiate a settlement - I've settled two. All but one have fallen off my credit file (the one left over should have gone too as it's as old as the others, but that's another problem and is a fairly small amount). I don't own a house but I do live with my partner in a small village. I don't want to risk bailiffs or harrassment so am nervous to just stop paying and start ignoring the UE debts. And a large part of me also thinks I should pay something.

Has anyone had any luck using the fact that a debt is UE to negotiate a very small settlement? Is there a template for this by any chance?

Any advice gratefully received.

5 debt details coming right up...

Many thanks in advance.

[SarahSarah]

UNENFORCEABLE - COURT CLAIM DISMISSED

• Bank Of Scotland then Lloyds TSB
• Credit card
• Approx 2001
• £6k
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to date.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Defaulted. Now dropped off credit file.
• PRA Group - Court Claim Dismissed.

I requested the CCA and this debt was deemed UE by PRA Group. A few months later, I received a signed credit agreement. Not sure if that now makes this enforceable??

update June 18: Niddy has seen the signed agreement and says that this one is enforceable. I’ll try and settle it, any experience with PRA Group anyone??
Update 30 June 18: Cancelled DMP. Payments no longer being made to this account.
July 18: Sent SAR to BOS.
July 18: The calls have started, recording telling me PRA Group are trying to get in touch.
early August: Changed my mobile number.
early Sept: Letter from PRA saying that if I don’t call to set up a payment plan, they may pursue me via the county court. Gave me 14 days to respond, which I haven’t.
October 18: I have now received a Letter Before Claim from PRA Group. It includes the box A-G form and and Income & Expenditure form. I have already sent a CCA to PRA and Niddy believes the agreement to be enforceable. Not sure what my next move should be? Particularly interested in what you have to say Di as I know you know PRA well.
November 18: Di Mayhew has looked at the credit agreement they returned to me and has pointed out a few things that may make it unenforceable. I've responded to PRA with the completed form, ticking box D disputing that I owe the debt. Let's see what they come back with.
Feb 19: PRA sent an agreement which looks to be reconstituted
March 19: Letter from PRA advising they will continue to take this matter to court and issue proceedings in accordance with the Pre Action Protocol within the next 15 days. Diana Mayhew I have sent you copies of both of these letters (Feb & March).
Sept 19: PRA have sent another Letter Before Claim. I have responded saying that I returned their form in October 2018 and my position remains unchanged - I do not intend to return the form again, please do not send further letters.
Sept 19: PRA emailed me (for the first time in a long time to thank me for my complaint, they have started a formal investigation into my concerns. I didn't actually send my letter to a complaints department but I did say I would not hesitate to deal with any "further harrassment".
Oct 19: It's here, PRA have issued a court claim and I have received the form to fill in. Sending to Joanna Connolly Solicitors.
Feb 20: Thanks to the help of Joanna Connolly Solicitors, PRA have dismissed this claim. Thank you Diana Mayhew

[SarahSarah]

• Barclaycard
• Credit card
• Approx 2006
• £500
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to date.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Defaulted since 2013. Fallen off credit file.
• PRA Group

I requested the CCA and this debt is currently considered UE by PRA Group. Last PARTIAL settlement offer from them was £335. I have read elsewhere that "partial" will always be the word used on your credit file, regardless of weather F&F was agreed...?

June 18: Cancelled DMP. Payments no longer being made to this account.
July 18: Sent SAR to Barclaycard.
early August 18: Received settlement offer from PRA. No action taken.
early Sept 18: Received almost identical settlement offer from PRA. No action taken.
May 19: Another suggestion of settlement. No thanks.
Sept 19: Another suggestion of settlement. Filed.
Nov 19: Another suggestion of settlement. Filed. This debt has also now fallen off my credit file.
Feb 21: PRA now send me a very regular standard email offering me around 15% discount to pay off. Always file with no response.

[SarahSarah]

• MBNA
• Credit card
• Approx 2000
• £1,200
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to date.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Defaulted. Now dropped off credit file.
• Link Financial

I requested the CCA and received a signed credit agreement. Last settlement offer from them was £780.

Update June 18: Sent agreement to Never-In-Doubt for his opinion
Update June 18: Cancelled DMP. Payments no longer being made to this account.
July 18: Sent SAR to MBNA.
July 18: Niddy has now seen the agreement and pointed out that it is reconstituted and therefore UE.
July 18: MBNA have said they have insufficient info to identify and verify me and can't continue with my SAR request and have asked for a lot more info. They definitely have something as they have corresponded with me at my current address before now. Have written a new letter saying I request all information they have on me based on details already provided (literally, my name and address).
Aug 18: Letter from Link "You have not advised us why you have stopped making payments". Filed.
Oct 18: Letter from Link reminding me that the debt was sold to them (Link Financial Ltd) and they'd like to talk to me. Filed.
Feb 19: Same letter from Link reminding me that the debt was sold to them (Link Financial Ltd) and they'd like to talk to me. Filed.
May 19: Letter from Link, would I like to pay in instalments? Filed.
Jul 19: Letter from Link Financial Outsourcing Limited saying "you will be aware that your account previously owned by Link Financial Limited is being serviced by Link FInancial Outsourcing Ltd. They'd like to talk to me. Filed. Looking back, all letterheads have been Link Financial Outsourcing Limited since Nov 2010. Before that, letterheads were Link Financial Ltd.
Sept 19: Letter - Would I like to pay in instalments? Filed.
Feb 20: Letter - We haven't written in a while, please call us. Filed
Feb 20: Letter - We'd like to talk to you, please call us. Filed.
Feb 21: I now just get monthly statements from Link, which I file.
Jul 23: I now just get annual statements from Link, which I file.

[SarahSarah]

• Halifax
• Credit card
• Approx 2002
• £1,100
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Last DMP payment Jun 18.
• Arrangement via a DMC 2007-2018
• Defaulted. Now dropped off credit file.
• Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd

Mar 08: Default notice from Halifax.
Apr 08: Account passed to Blair, Olivier & Scott Ltd Debt Collectors
Sept 12: Halifax write to advise that "Halifax has assigned all of it's respective rights, title and interest... to Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd. " Later in the letter is states "Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited has been appointed by Cabot Financial (UK) Ltd to manage your account in line with the arrangements agreed with Blair, Oliver & Scott".
Sept 12: Welcome to Cabot letter "The Cabot Credit Management Group has recently bought the account you held with Halifax..."
Aug 13: Cabot offer a partial settlement of around 30%. Said it would be full and final settlement but marked as partially settled. Refused.
Jul 14: Settlement offer from Cabot of around 70%, refused.
Jun 17: My settlement offer of around 30% refused.
Jun 17: Sent CCA request.
Jul 17: We don not have this info (CCA) on file, however we have asked for it.
Sept 17: Letter from Cabot saying they have not been able to provide me with the requested info, credit agreement currently unenforceable.
une 18: Cancelled DMP. Payments no longer being made to this account.
July 18: Sent SAR to BOS (nee Halifax).
July 18: First letter from Cabot after cancelling DMP. Suggesting Step Change. Saying account now on hold for 14 days.
early Aug 18: received a response to SAR asking to sign my original letter. I have signed with a signature different to the one I used in 2002.
September 18: Received a statement of account showing 3 months with zero paid.
May 19: Letter from Cabot saying they have failed to make contact so will instruct "a company called Moorcroft to try to arrange a visit at your home to that they can put you back in touch with us". They go on to say they would rather speak to me within the next 7 days "or you'll receive a visit from Moorcroft".
Jul 19: Letter from Moorcroft saying they may pay me a visit if I don't call to arrange payment. The standard letter.
Jul 19: Letter from Halifax BOS saying they have been unable to find any info, please send DOB, previous address and signature. Which I did.
Aug 19: Letter from Moorcroft saying they will pay me a visit on a specific date. I have sent the harassment / doorstop template letter.
Sept 19: Response from Moorcroft saying they have passed my letter on to their client as liability lies with them. they will not make contact regarding collection of the balance whilst the issue is being investigated.
Nov 19: Letter from Cabot saying "we have been trying to contact you, please fill in this financial summary".
Feb 20: Letter - We are going to appoint Resolvecall to visit you. Call us or expect a visit from them.
Mar 20: Letter - Avoid legal action, you have 21 days. You account will be placed with a solicitor who will send you a letter before action.
Mar 20: Letters - You have 14 days before we commence legal proceedings... Then you now have 7 days...
Apr 20: Letter from Mortimer Clarke saying "Cabot reserves its right to pursue a court claim in the future". Please contact us within 30 days.
Jun 20: Letter Before Claim received from Mortimer Clarke Solicitors. Ticked box D and returned.
Aug 20:Letter from MC - We notice you have not completed income/ expend form, please reply within 10 days. Filed.
Sept 20: Another Letter Before Claim received. Ticked Box D and returned.
Oct 20: Letter from Mortimer Clarke - "We really need to talk to you... we are instructed to issue court proceedings and we recently wrote to you about this but we'd prefer to talk to you." Filed.

Nov 20: Letter from MC - "We note you have indicated you dispute the debt, however you have not clarified why". They then refer to a letter they say they sent in July which I didn't receive. They enclose a copy of the letter which states that is encloses: copy of reconstituted agreement, historic terms, statement of account from original creditor and statement of account from our firm. It also states that "our client is not able to provide a copy of the original credit agreement as well as the following:

"Please be advised that under the FCA Consumer Credit sourcebook at rule 13.1.4, a firm able to reconstitue a copy of the agreement, and there is no obligation to provide a copy which includes a copy of the signature. This was also confirmed in the case of Carey v HSBC Bank PLC (2009) EWHC 3417"

It then details background of the debt, my dispute, their investigation then says that Cabot complied with my requests for a CCA but includes them again (I didn't receive this letter they refer to with these copies). Furthermore the enclosed statement of account shows the numerous payments you have already made towards the debt which we would say is eveidence that you are aware of the debt. (I was paying via a DMP until Jun 18). In conclusion, they say I am liable for the debt and they will hold the debt for a further 21 days, please complete income/expenditure.

Anecdotally, I am now unemployed due to redundancy.

Nov 20: Sent second SAR to Halifax.
Nov 20: Sent MC a letter asking for copies of the supporting documentation they refer to in their letter dated July 20.
Jan 21: Received a response from Halifax, they need me to go to a branch to confirm ID.
Jan 21: Response from Mortimer Clarke with copies of statements back to when the account was opened with Halifax plus TWO reconstituted agreements, covering two different addresses I lived at. Sent these to Niddy who says they look unenforceable as they are recons.
Jan 21: Went to Halifax branch to confirm ID as requested for SAR.
Feb 21: Another "Potential Legal Action" letter with a letter of claim and reply form. Will tick box D and return.
Feb 21: Mortimer Clarke chasing for a response within a week.
Feb 21: Received SAR paperwork from Halifax. Same recons sent by MC plus statements and various other bits. Nothing looks particularly interesting...Should I be looking for anything else?
May 21: Received a court claim logged by Mortimer Clarke "on behlaf of" Cabot. I actually defended it myself after researching and combining info relevent to my case with a template at Legal Beagles. I quickly received a "we are in receipt of your defence, the claimant has 33 days to repond" letter from the court. One of my favourite points in the list was this:

Further, the Claimant is not authorised to carry on the activity of Debt Collection or Administration by the Financial Services Authority. Collection of a debt arising from a regulated Consumer Credit agreement constitutes a Regulated Activity within the meaning of the Financial Services & Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) Order 2001 (‘RAO’) (Section 39F) and therefore the Claimant is acting in contravention of Section 19 of the FSMA 2000 and is not entitled to bring this claim.

July 21: Followed up with the court. The claimant has not responded and the deadline has passed, therefore the case is "stayed" i.e. halted indefinitely. An application to lift the stay would cost MC £100.
July 23: Heard nothing since.

[SarahSarah]

? ?????

• Royal Bank of Scotland
• Loan & Overdraft
• Jan 2007
• £17K
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to June 18.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• 6+ late payments
• Currently Moorcroft

Nov 07: Joined a Debt Management Company who negotiated small repayments.
Oct 11: Experian credit report status is "6 payments late". Special Instruction indicator: "Arrangment".
Mar 12: "Formal Notice of intention to file a default and to take court action to recover the debt". DMC then spoke with RBS and told me I was fine for another year. No court action was taken. I don't know if the account was defaulted.
Oct 12: Letter from RBS "... you have failed to comply with the requirements set out in the recent Default Notice/ Termination Notice(s) served against you... We are terminating all banking facilities". I don't know if this means it was actually defaulted.
Nov 12: Letter from RBS saying account details have been passed to AIC (Allied International Credit (UK) Ltd) to act as collection agent.
Dec 12: Intro letter from AIC.
Mar 13: Letter from AIC - early settlement offer with no figure. I did call them but no settlement figure was within reach for me.
During this time I spoke with AIC a few times over the phone to try and get a settlement figure. No luck.
Feb 15: Wrote to RBS to see if there was a chance of settling, they wrote back saying thanks, please deal with AIC.
Jun 17: Wrote to AIC asking for CCA. They responded saying it's RBS responsibility, passed on to them.
Sept 17: Chased AIC for CCA, they say they are still awaiting a response from RBS.
Sept 17: Experian credit report lists this account as "over 6 late payments".
Oct 17: I requested the CCA and received a "True Copy", no signed photocopy.
Jan 18: Wrote to RBS offering settlement. No response.

Jun 18: FOUND AAD! Hallelujah!

June 18: Niddy reckons this one is unenforceable, no signed agreement. They say in their letter they are only obliged to send a true copy - is there a template I can use to ask again? I may fall into an actual faint if this whoppa is UE!

June18: Niddy reckons this one is UE as there is no signed agreement. Is the "Missing prescribed terms" template appropriate here? I'm confused as they refer in their letter to the doc they sent being a "True Copy" and the template asks for a true copy. Pic of letter attached along with a response from RBS saying that AIC will be collecting the debt "on their behalf". Is this a nice way of saying they have sold the debt and no longer have anything to do with it?


Update 30th June 18: Changed from Defaulted to Active. I had this wrong previously, apologies. Thought it had defaulted with all the others.
July 18: Sent SAR to RBOS.
July 18: Letter from AIC asking to call to arrange payment as DM cancelled.
Sept 18: Letter from RBS saying that they have been unable to reach an agreement with me so the account has been passed to Allied International to act as collection agent. Confusing as it's been with Allied for years. On my credit file, this account was delinquent for years, then randomly changed to payments up to date for a few months then went into delinquency again. Is there any detrimental effect (any worse than 72+ months of delinquency!) to this bizarre scoring?
Feb 19: Letter from RBS saying their previous collection agency has failed to agree a management plan with me so it has now been passed to a new collection agent - Zinc Group Ltd.
March 19: Zinc sent a welcome letter.
April 19: Zinc Credit Management wrote to say they will have not choice but to consider legal proceedings if they don't hear from me.
July 19: RBS wrote to say they have now passed the debt on to Moorcroft.
Aug: 19: Intro letter and follow up "we haven't heard from you" letters from Moorcroft. Filed.
Sept 19: Monthly Instalment Offer letter from Moorcroft. Threatening to "recommence collection activity" if no response within 7 days.
Sept 19: Letter from Moorcroft saying they may pay me a visit if I don't call to arrange payment. The standard letter.
Sept 19: Sent the do not visit letter.
Oct 19: Moorcroft have sent a letter saying thank you for confirming you will only communicate in writing, please fill in the attached expenditure form.
Nov 19: Moorcroft sent an "Our field agent will visit you on this date". I sent another do not visit letter.
Nov 19: Moorcroft visited when I wasn't in.
Nov 19: Sent a letter saying I am still waiting on CCA and SAR.
Nov 19: Moorcroft wrote to say they acknowledge I have raised a query and will not contact me again while it is being investigated.
Nov 19: Moorcroft sent a letter saying they can't provide the SAR, have handed it to RBS. Also suggest giving a reason for the request so RBS can assist me fully.
Nov 19: (Probably shouldn't have but) Asked Experian to correct my credit report to reflect that the account defaulted in Oct 2012. They said they spoke to RBS who ask me to contact them directly.
Dec 19: Statement of fees received for the overdraft account.
Dec 19: RBS write re SAR asking for proof of identity and to clarify what info I would like along with account numbers. They've made me wait over a year, so I think I'll make them wait a little... My plan of action is to send ID and ask for everything they have relating to me at my address. I won't give account numbers.
Jan 20: RBS write and give short deadline to provide proof of ID. I haven't made the deadline so will wait to see what happens.
Jan 20: Moorcroft write to suggest I get in touch to agree a payment schedule. No threats in this round yet.
Feb 20: Moorcroft write to say they will continue to write to me, may schedule a visit. Can they keep doing that after the do not visit letter?
Feb 20: Moorcroft write to say this has been passed to Home Collection Division and may visit. Also "our client has informed us that we may be able to offer a substantial discount".
Mar 20: With the help of Niddy, I am challenging Experian, Equifax and Trans Union to amend my credit file which still shows this as late payments rather than defaulted in 2012.
Sept 20: I started the quest to amend my credit file with Experian, they basically wouldn't do anything and advised me to conact RBS. Lots of chat with Niddy, I got too worried that I would poke the hornets nest so didn't approach RBS directly to amend my credit file.
Sept 20: Letter from RBS, which looks like a "we're about to sell your debt" letter... Says that I am still liable and they would like to work with me, they also reserve the right to take further action to recover the debt, which "may include the sale of your debt to a third party, who will then be entitled to pursue you for the debt".
Nov 20: strange things happening on my credit file... On Clearscore, this account was defaulted in Sept 20. It did show 2 recent months of "on time" payments but they have now been removed. The balance has now also gone down to £9.5k (It had been showing £13k for a few years). Last Moorcroft letter (Feb 20) still has it at £17k
July 23: Heard nothing on this since Sept 20.

[The Tech Clerk]

Diana Mayhew

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

• Bank Of Scotland then Lloyds TSB
• Credit card
• Approx 2001
• £6k
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to date.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Defaulted. Now dropped off credit file.
• PRA Group

I requested the CCA and this debt was deemed UE by PRA Group. A few months later, I received a signed credit agreement. Not sure if that now makes this enforceable??

Just because you've received a signed agreement that doesn't necessarily make the debt enforceable, especially if other statutory notices are flawed or absent such as the Default Notice (s87) or Notice of Sums in Arrears (s86) or the Notice of Assignment.

And of course the debt owner has to prove that they have the legal right to collect the debt (Deeds and assignment issues).

I'll illustrate this with a case which was won last year. It was PRA v Diana Mayhew (me ). You'll see that they produced two signed agreements and still lost the case >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED v DIANA MAYHEW - WIN

I have full knowledge of this case since I was the Defendant (Plan B is Diana Mayhew).

I was also the "Client" of Joanna Connolly Solicitors where I currently work. How ironical.

I have no shame in being taken to court for a debt which arose with MBNA when I was in "financial chaos" at the start of the Credit Crunch which was caused by the banks not me or any of you other debtors out there.

But I didn't personally owe PRA any money (as agreed by Recorder Bellamy) and that was the reason I decided to fight this case.

I wasn't only doing it for me, I was doing it for all the other debtors who've been served with claims for a MBNA debt which travelled the same assignment route as mine.

I was also doing it because the documents produced by the Claimant needed forensic examination. As Jo has said the court found them irredeemably unenforceable. There were two claims for two accounts and both credit agreements failed the test in court.

It was a win for the consumer not just me.

PRA have said that they will not be appealing the judgment.

Di x

The thing is s 77-79 CCA is for 'information' purposes not 'proof' purposes. They can produce a signed credit agreement to satisfy s.78 CCA but be defeated in court if they haven't got everything else they need.

Your credit card account was opened in 2001 so it will have to be flawless to pass the test.

You can read the whole thread here > https://www.all-about-debt.co.uk/for...ana-mayhew-win

Meanwhile email the credit agreement you received to Niddy (Never-in-Doubt) for an opinion on whether it's enforceable. Send it to webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk with your username in the Subject bar and a link to this thread in the body of the email. No need to blank anything out, it's perfectly secure.

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

• Royal Bank of Scotland
• Loan
• Jan 2007
• £17K
• Last full payment approx Oct 2007. Negotiated installment paid up to date.
• Arrangement via a DMC
• Defaulted. Now dropped off credit file.
• AIC

I requested the CCA and received a "True Copy", no signed photocopy. I believe this one to be enforceable...?

What makes you believe this debt is enforceable?

You say you've been sent a reconstituted agreement but is it 'honest and accurate' especially since you say they haven't produced a signed document and you opened the account before April 2007?

Email it to Niddy for an opinion (see my previous post on how to do that).

This debt is still with the original creditor because they've been getting payments from you for the last ten years via your Debt Management Plan. They may have become complacent. The 'work' is done by AIC which is a Debt Collection Agency so it's not costing them anything to leave things as they are.

Who provides your DMP because all those years (10!) which you were paying them each month they were making money out of your unfortunate circumstances. It's unlikely that they would have been motivated to help you explore the enforceability of your debts and whether you were legally bound to pay them because their income depended on you being in debt.

Was there PPI on this RBS loan?

Di

[SarahSarah]

Thanks so much Di, I agree that the DMC have their own agenda, but I did sign up and agree to it. I may choose to gun for them at a later date but at the moment, it's not a priority.

I don't want to risk going to court over any of these debts, despite your admirable win, as I am in a much better situation these days and have been paying much less than I could probably really afford (in the eyes of the law) for a few years, because I've been saving up to neotiate a settlement myself. I now just want to figure out how best I can get these debts settled/ written off as soon as I can.

While I completely agree that the state of the financial industry is abhorant, along with the practices they have employed, I do accept that I got myself into this situation and should pay what I can, though I am not above using their failures to help the situation!

I'll send my paperwork to Niddy and see what advice he has.

Regarding RBS, I have been in recent contact with them as well as AIC, so how could that become unenforceable if I am readily admitting to the debt? If the paper trail on their end is unsufficient enough to render it UE, what then? Court?

I have a bit of money saved up and would really just like the quickest way out, it's been a long haul!

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

There isn't a quick way out I'm afraid.

I've often said that if you want to be a lawyer in this area (consumer law) you should read psychology at university not law because tactics and strategy play an enormous part in dealing with debt owners whose sole intention is to make money out of a situation.

You're assuming that making an offer to settle on an unenforceable debt will automatically result in acceptance of that offer (after some haggling). Sometimes it is seen as a sign of weakness and a willingness to pay which can be used against you in court (despite any Without Prejudice letters).

They may take the view that if you can offer to pay something/anything then you have access to funds.

They can check your CRA file and see some accounts marked as "Settled" or "Part Settled" so you must have money coming from somewhere. They'll want a share of that available money so issuing a claim could be one way for them to get certainty (a CCJ).

Do you own your home (with mortgage) or do you rent?

I think you're at the stage where you need to do your research thoroughly before you decide to rock the boat or make offers to pay them.

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Regarding RBS, I have been in recent contact with them as well as AIC, so how could that become unenforceable if I am readily admitting to the debt?

If a credit agreement is unenforceable it doesn't matter how often you've been in contact with RBS and AIC because that won't make the document suddenly become enforceable.

A lot depends on what you've been saying to RBS/AIC. Have you said anything which could help them to remedy their mistakes?

Your correspondence admitting the debt would be relevant if you were aiming for Statute Barred status, but since you are currently paying the debt that (SB) won't happen until six years after you stop paying them.

Only lawyers like going to court, but don't let fear of a claim colour your decision on how to manage your current situation. Issuing a claim and winning in court are two different things. If they have an irredeemably unenforceable credit agreement then they won't win. And if they did my firm would likely appeal the decision!

As I've said there are many more reasons for a debt to be unenforceable not just the credit agreement. Have you been served with a Notice of Sums in Arrears every year?

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I don't want to risk going to court over any of these debts

I'm afraid that decision may not be in your hands.

Creditors and debt purchasers issue thousands of claims online (MCOL) every month even if they know the debt is unenforceable since 90% of court claims result in a Default Judgment (CCJ) because the Defendant doesn't respond or know how to respond, or the claims are issued (sometimes deliberately) to the wrong address denying the Defendant the opportunity to defend them.

The attitude can be to 'give it a go' since they'll have bought the debt for next-to-nothing so losing the odd one in court won't make a dent in the overall scheme of things (i.e. the 90% which result in a CCJ without being tested).

Even if you're paying through a DMP you're not immune to a claim.

These statistics from the Ministry of Justice published earlier this month make sober reading > https://assets.publishing.service.go...n-mar-2018.pdf

You'll see 427,900 money claims were issued between January and March this year which is a 9% increase on the same period last year.

Sadly only 71,800 of those claims were defended the rest (90%) went straight to a CCJ either by default or admission.

Why don't you read the Diaries and see how other members have successfully navigated their way through their debt mountains.

Di

[SarahSarah]

Thanks for this Diana Mayhew . I'm sending my paperwork to Niddy on the two larger ones which haven't been deemed unenforceable.

Regarding those that are unenforceable, what are my next steps and what should I expect?

Do you know of any specific diaries which have had successes? Is there a board for success stories? It's difficult to see the wood for the trees!

[Spud]

Hi Sarah

Continuing on with your broad question about the Unenforceability route........And its a very broad and difficult question to address........as everybody's circumstance is different

And my post seems totally inadequate after Diana's assistance........But let me share a few thoughts and experience with you

But what I would say is, If your debts are mostly judged to be unenforceable ( After sending for CCA requests) then it is reasonable to assume that should you follow that route - You are likely to come out the other end having reached the Statute barred threshold ( 6 years ) on the majority if not all of those accounts without too much trouble. There are no guarantees and it is likely that one or more may issue a claim against you that you may/may not be able to defend successfully - But on the whole most members who have been through the process and come out the other side ( Or are very close on doing so) have seen that the majority of their accounts/creditors have fallen by the way side with perhaps one or two who have had solicitors involved and maybe a claim or two to address etc

When deciding on the best course of action for you, It will come down to your circumstances and what are priorities for you ( Some jobs may require a perfect ( Unblemished) credit record etc) so a period of information gathering is recommended so that you can make an informed choice

In comparison to paying say 10 debts for the next 20 years ( In some cases ) - 6 years of the U/E route and lets say you get 1 court claim that you cannot successfully defend and then agree an affordable settlement on is to many a desirable outcome - Especially if you were going to be paying anyway?

In many cases it is also about you taking the power back and being in control. You would be free to move on with your life in many respects ( If you needed a mortgage in say 8 years time etc)

If you were to follow the U/E route ( Once you know where you stand) and stop making payments - You could in effect start to save the payment amount you usually make so that you have a sum of money to help defend a case ( Should it ever come) or make a full and final payment if things got too much on one account say? You will likely find other accounts will eventually fall silent etc.

Yes , Initially you will get a few letters and maybe a few phone calls - But we can deal with those quite successfully with the template letters we have here on the site - I speak from personal experience.

I think everybody who was in your position now and was thinking about the UE route had the same questions and reservations - Its natural to and I/We completely understand that

All I will say to you is for me it was the best thing I ever did - Niddy and the members on this site quite literally changed my life for the better - So much better. I think we can all understand that feeling once you have been on here for a few months or years etc - BUT it only started when I took ( What felt like to me anyway) a massive leap of faith in these people who I had never met or ( being honest at the time) not even sure I could trust ( Sorry Guys) - Scary stuff.........

But I took the plunge...... it was the best thing I ever did and here I am 5 1/2 years along - Some accounts have fallen by the wayside and have been written off or they have confirmed to me in writing that they cannot enforce them, A couple have issued claims that have very quickly been discontinued ( Thanks in total to the very knowledgeable people on this site) so effectively they have gone - And I have one who sends me a regular monthly "Love letter" ( God I miss the 10 letters a week stage - Nobody writes to me any more - Its very lonely) who may decide to fancy their chances with a Solicitor ( But doesn't know what I know......and will very quickly be sent away with a tail between their legs) so all in all........Life is good - And certainly better than me paying for the next 40 years on what I owed - And I will most likely be looking for a mortgage in 2-3 years time etc so for me it was the sensible way forward

6 years (5 in Scotland) seems like such a long time but believe me it has gone ( Almost) in the blink of an eye........and i'm not sure whether its quite right to admit it.....but I have enjoyed it along the way. I have seen many people join the same route over the years ( and many become debt free using the UE route as well) and I have certainly enjoyed helping others who were in the same terrible position I was in by telling "My tale" and hoping to inspire a bit of confidence in a process that does work

Start that diary, Send the CCA requests off and see where you stand......What have you got to lose? There are some good people here who will help and support you along the way.......very good people