Extended Mortgage term and Buildings Insurance Premiums.

[Guest]

Hi again, i have my SAR now and its took a while to go through it and understand it. I now have a great deal of empathy for the Complaints Investigator that looked at it and refused it, its hard to understand unless you know specifically what you are looking for and the investigator did look. I see in the notes they did look and there was a lack of documentation from the time period i was concerned about. There is no financials at all for 1989 and 1990 . So the only way you can get clue is to read the correspondance, i'll try lay it out here , i hoping some here maybe able to help me understand it better..........

From what i can fathom out, this shows that far from failed to increase my payment, i did infact overpay initially? And confirms i paid what they asked for ?

[Guest]

Looking at the statements, they're largely unintelligible to me. I've cropped nothing off them and that is how they have come to me. I've difficulty in working out payments from debits. The opening letter with the SAR states .

.Historical information can only be retained if there is a legitimate reason for doing so. Therefore, some of the original account records may have been destroyed in line with our records retention policy.

Now the odd thing is that they have give me letters from 1988/1989 etc.... but the most crucial years accounts/statement i.e 1989/1990 are not there. That worries me really, any advice ? Also the bundle threw up a memory, something i'd forgotten about and its revealing in its own right i think:

In 1993 we went to look at a new build estate round the corner from us and made an initial application to buy one of the new houses. As was the case then the sales people sorted every part of the application out for you and they filled out an application for a mortgage with the Woolwich Building Society. The Woolwich in turn contacted AN to check our mortgage history. Here is the reply from AN in September 1993.

[Still Waving]

Hi

It's not easy to decipher some of the column entries on those 'statements'. However, your original mortgage according to their letter was £13,375.69. The first two of those statements appear to show that your balance at end of 1990 was £13,324.59 (£13,196.84 plus your 22/1/91 payment of £127.75), and your balance at end of 1991 was £13,274.80, and at end of 1992 was £13301.75 - which is what you said at post #44 was the original loan amount.

It does appear (from these statements) that you mis-remembered the original mortgage sum. It also appears that the year end balance outstanding was not going up in those first 2/3 years. It went up slightly at end of '92, but the statement does not appear to show the early part of the year.

I can't follow those scans of 1993, but they do appear to show balance at end of '93 as £13129.08.

This all seems to go against the original thinking that the balance was going up each year.

[Guest]

Thanks Still Waving. I know, TBH its left me more confused. I can't actually work out what has happened other than its been extended by 10 years. From what i can fathom of the payments i made they seem very specific so like i thought i was paying what i was asked to pay. Any ideas at all or just sleep on it and wait for FOS to have a look ?

[Guest]

Weird:

[Guest]

I'll have to go to bed its sending me crackers looking at it. There is something badly wrong and i just can't see it.....................

[Still Waving]

It's late, but just some quick thoughts from my ruminations.

How it now seems to me. Their letter to you dated 13/2/89 (NOTE: After the rate had increased to 13.5%) advised that your repayments were to be £118.69. They haven't specified a rate in the letter, but I think they are basing the repayment on the NEW rate (ie current rate at the time of writing). The additional £29.01 they are asking for is, I think, to cover the interest for the part month (Jan - at split rates).

The fact that you now say you had MIRAS changes everything as regards the monthly repayment. You were paying net interest (after relief). I am not sure what the MIRAS rate was in '89, but I have done some rough calculations based on my assumptions, and it brings the monthly repayment very close to the £118 odd which they quoted to you.

[Guest]

Thanks again Still Waving. I've come to the same answer. MIRAS was 25%, i double checked and its easy to reference off them bits of statements. So its straightforward to work out. I get the correct even at 13.5% to be as near as dammit £118.69. As i glance back you can see where they say my 1989 insurance payment was made, then years later say it never was. The missing portions of 1993 is odd. I'm a bit more concerned about the 1989/1990 statements now. I still can't understand how they extended it, is it something i'm missing ?

[Still Waving]

There appears to be confusion on your account at the outset. Referring back to your post #76, and their letter (date not shown) which refers to their letter dated 20/2/89. Their confirmation of your alleged credit balance shows a payment of £223.27, which appears to breakdown as follows -

118.69 monthly instalment, plus
29.01 payment in respect of the period 23/01 to 31/01, plus
75.67 of the insurance premium 80.30(?), shown in their letter 20/02

Which would mean there has actually been an underpayment of £4.63. The actual breakdown of the £223.27 amount may be different from my assumptions. Their letter of 20/02 asked that you send a letter requesting transfer of your insurance payment out of the account. Is there a record in the SAR bundle of a letter from you, as requested? If so, what date, and is there a confirmation that it was actioned prior to their letter showing a breakdown of your balance position?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to get a clear understanding of how your account got into such a confused/confusing state after just two months. They initially got your start date wrong and then said that they had mis-stated the (credit) position after you had made just two payments.

[Still Waving]

Hi again

You've confused me with your post #'s 80 and 81.

Why have you chosen 2015 in particular?

In the mortgage calculator you are using the balance at end of 1992/beginning of 1993, and applying the rate of interest at 2015, but at end 2015 the balance was £6776.80. Also I don't follow your rationale for the two term of years you have used?

[Guest]

Hi again

You've confused me with your post #'s 80 and 81.

Why have you chosen 2015 in particular?

In the mortgage calculator you are using the balance at end of 1992/beginning of 1993, and applying the rate of interest at 2015, but at end 2015 the balance was £6776.80. Also I don't follow your rationale for the two term of years you have used?

Ignore my calculations, i think i was over tired. I chose 2015 statement because thats where it says "original loan amount", makes no sense ?

[Guest]

There appears to be confusion on your account at the outset. Referring back to your post #76, and their letter (date not shown) which refers to their letter dated 20/2/89. Their confirmation of your alleged credit balance shows a payment of £223.27, which appears to breakdown as follows -

118.69 monthly instalment, plus
29.01 payment in respect of the period 23/01 to 31/01, plus
75.67 of the insurance premium 80.30(?), shown in their letter 20/02

Which would mean there has actually been an underpayment of £4.63. The actual breakdown of the £223.27 amount may be different from my assumptions. Their letter of 20/02 asked that you send a letter requesting transfer of your insurance payment out of the account. Is there a record in the SAR bundle of a letter from you, as requested? If so, what date, and is there a confirmation that it was actioned prior to their letter showing a breakdown of your balance position?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to get a clear understanding of how your account got into such a confused/confusing state after just two months. They initially got your start date wrong and then said that they had mis-stated the (credit) position after you had made just two payments.

No, nothing more in the SAR about it. The undated letter is 31st March. I've been on the phone to them today to enquire about the missing financials for 1989/1990, agreed it seemed odd that they are not included and said he is right on it to try and find them for me so fingers crossed

[Still Waving]

Their original excuse for not being included was flimsy.

Possibly someone had the initial statements out to investigate your separate question regarding the early years of the account.

[Guest]

Their original excuse for not being included was flimsy.

Possibly someone had the initial statements out to investigate your separate question regarding the early years of the account.

The Complaints investigators words are :

Reviewed customers account information and there is limited information regarding documents and correspondance from the time period the customer has raised

Thats the place my question went to. I gather from the sound of that , that the investigator was suprised there was no more ?

[Roger]

Well frankly if they are NOT in the SAR how can produce them? It means they don't hold original information!
I wonder does the name IRON MOUNTAIN appear in the SAR?
Big thanks to Still Waving for sterling help here!