Extended Mortgage term and Buildings Insurance Premiums.

[Roger]

Personally I think you have sufficient!
"..
I note that there was a delay in the completion of your mortgage and it did not actually complete until January 1989.
At this time you were quoted an instalment of £118.69 based on an interest rate of 12.75%.
Later in the month the interest rate increased to 13.50%, however you continued to pay £118.69, and as a result the term extended
.."
It implies a detailed knowledge of your Mortgage!
1/ ".. there was a delay in the completion of your mortgage and it did not actually complete until January 1989 .." - Thats a Start Date
2/ "..At this time you were quoted an instalment of £118.69 based on an interest rate of 12.75%. .."
3/ ".. Later in the month the interest rate increased to 13.50%, however you continued to pay £118.69, and as a result the term extended .."

Now your knowledge is 1/ and their advice to you 2/
BUT in that same month the records show that because of a interest rate increase - WHAT THEY HAD QUOTED 2/ HAD CHANGED AND YOU WERE NOT TOLD!

This is all you really need to know as the basis of your complaint!
Because they admit 3/ that they knew that 2/ WAS wrong!
I mean that is more than enough for a Complaint

[Guest]

Hi

First, I would suggest forgetting that freeman of the land stuff. Second, aren't you going off half-cocked sending whatever to whomever before you have all your info? It's your choice alone, obviously, but ....

Hi Still waving, many thanks for your reply. You seem to add anyalitical replies that i hadn't considered, so i'm well aware that your brain functions very different to mine and also i'm very appreciative of your replies so i don't want you to stop ! However i have detected that you don't do nuance...........my reference to freeman on the land stuff was meant to imply that i generally regard them as nutters that fill page after page after page with useless babble. I thought i had indicated (by mention of them ) that i had exactly done the opposite (kept it concise).

Your second point............. am i going off half cocked ?
Its a good question and its a question i have considered at length before i even done it . I've sent my complaint to the Ombudsman. I'm not going to recompile them here again, but everything i need i've posted here in this thread. Their own statements confirm the start date of the loan, their own statements confirm the payment amount and the loan amount. Its mostly due to you that i realised what they done to me in plain sight and i never realised it . The SAR and the rest of it is going to be akin to me watching a video of someone doing something bad to me, i'll just get the graphic detail. I know there is nothing in that SAR that is going to be negative to me, i also know that any ombudsman /adjudcator will get access to all my files and history and they will do that no matter what info i produce by way of a SAR. They will investigate me as much as the lender, i've no problem with that. Like i said previously............. i'm either right or i'm wrong.

[Guest]

Personally I think you have sufficient!

I think so too Roger.

[Still Waving]

However i have detected that you don't do nuance...........my reference to freeman on the land stuff was meant to imply that i generally regard them as nutters that fill page after page after page with useless babble. I thought i had indicated (by mention of them ) that i had exactly done the opposite (kept it concise).

Yes it can be a problem when I'm trying to multi-task late in the evening.

Anyway, good luck with your case. I guess I prefer to be "belt and braces" when it's other people who will be making the decisions.

[Guest]

Hi again, hope i havn't offended anyone. I think i'm just a bit tired and emotional with all this now
to follow on from my post #60 when i said what the FOS where doing to lenders. I was able to find out more info up to date (ish) . I've found out that the limitations Act covers a couple of things pertinent to me, briefly the six year time limit, but also a 15 year long stop limit on any civil action. Non of these limits will apply in the case of a fraud or deciet. And the limitations act is a defence to a case and not a prohibition to bringing a case. So i felt comfortable on that score. I was pleased to find out that the FOS do not adhere to any 15 year long stop limit either. Thats the good news.

The other good news is that the FOS still appear to deal with these cases. I found two against the same lender (post 2012) . Both lost against the lender and their circumstances where very different to mine but i did get a takeaway from each case. (i'll link them if anyone wants to read them). In one case far from being outraged at the unknown term extension the Ombudsman appears relaxed about the term extension, saying (not verbatim)..... as was their usual practice at the time. And in the next case, despite the FOS ruling that they had not informed customers of the rate changes and effects they allowed the lender to reconstruct a rate change letter that would of been sent and had no sympathy for the borrower saying they never knew. This case was however 1986 rate change. But in general i got the impression that the brutal approach to the lender had changed to a drilling of the borrowers details instead.

Actually i'll pop the cases up here :
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org....DRN1346219.pdf

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org....DRN6172128.pdf

I havn't waited to visit the post office, i still have the big envelope sitting here. I've filled in the online complaints this afternoon. I'll know within ten working days hopefully if they will consider my complaint or they won't. My belief is that althought my case is a long one and historic, its still relativley simple and its still occuring. The difficult part would be the working out of any restitution should i win. In the meantime i'll probably recieve my SAR and mortgage calculation before i find out if my complaint has been accepted. Wish me luck, i'll keep you updated

[Roger]

OK first you CAN'T CALCULATE because you haven't been given any of the figures!

1/ Interest Rates and when changes occured? When , How and on what basis (Debt? Loan Term?) You couldn't know could you!

2/ That great unknown Abbey National General Insurance Premiums! Again what valuation? Property or outstanding mortgage and Loan Term?
".. From 1988 your buildings insurance premiums should have been paid directly to Abbey National General Insurance without the mortgage account being effected. ."?

Were you informed there was an ANNUAL insurance premium to their own Insurance Co. Specifically when they Quoted that first payment?
Because logically the Insurance had to start before that first Payment! [ couldn't before because you didn't own the property ]

Why didn't they write and ask for THIS Premium EACH AND EVERY YEAR?

".. However if the premium was not paid, then after a period of 63 days the mortgage account was debited with the premium, to ensure the property remained insured. This would not have put the loan into arrears but it would of increased the outstanding balance of the loan..."

Because this automatically EXTENDED the TERM of the LOAN! They knew this and could and should have informed you! YEAR on YEAR!

Now as per your statement ORIGINAL LOAN TERM 370 MONTHS = 30 years plus 10 month - starting Jan 1989 = OCT 2019

per your entry

• January 1989 : take out mortgage on house for 13.3k at a 25 year term THAT is 301 months = FEB 2014
• SO their 370 means as per their statement they had already ADD 60 MONTHS on the Term!

From the date of the statement December 2009
Remaining as at that time 13 years 11 months NOV 2022

No explaination for the additional 13 years 11 month on top of what? 25 years OR that 30 years plus 10 months

So you see you don't know the Interest Rate and changes OR how these Changes were computed by AN at each and every change.
Meaningless is their saying WE DON'T DO THAT NOW what are they saying they CONTINUED or they CHANGED the Mortgage Terms? Who Knows?

Now if you separately Insured your Property from that JAN 1989 and have evidence did they Know?
They should have asked you?
Because AN were making money on their AN Insurance Company were they NOT. Seems to me this was to cover their LOAN - same trick that the Banks were doing and had to repay the premiums!

Hopes these NOTES will help you!

[Guest]

Last week i emailed SN, i emailed a complaints investigator direct as their email address was in the email signature when they replied to me saying they would get info to me in 7 to 10 working days. I recieved email response back (generic email address). Briefly......... staff email addresses are for private internal use only, i've had my answer and my case has been thoroughly investigated, and

If you remain unhappy with Santander's response you have already taken the necessary step to approach the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). They will contact Santander accordingly and liaise with our FOS adjudicator, and a response will be provided in line standard procedure.

I have highlighted the bit in bold.

I take that pretty much as .."don't contact us again over this" ?

I've still no SAR here, Friday is the deadline i expect. My request on 22nd Nov for an explanation of my starting payments, still not here. If its not here tomorrow that will be over 10 working days.

I read somewhere, i'll see if i can find it in a bit, that the FCA/FCS code of conduct does require then to answer any concerns or queries with no timescale. Also FOS been in touch today, i have a case number and it can take around 4 months for case handler to get in touch with me.

I suppose i can beaver around with some simple questions in the meantime , i.e if my quoted payment was £118 @ 12.75%, what amount should of been paid when the rate changed to 13.5% ? I'm guessing these are simple legitimate questions they should answer or would it seem like spurious questions and i'm harrasing them ?

[Still Waving]

Hi

See my post #50.

[Guest]

Ok thanks, point taken. But i have only asked for a SAR once, i've not mentioned it to them since. And i've asked a separate question of how they did my calculation. I've asked no more than that.

[Guest]

Still no response to anything. There is no way i can sit on my hands for potentially four months. Is there anything to preclude me from lodging a complaint with the FCA at this point ?

[The Tech Clerk]

SAR not produced after 30 days?? then a complaint to the ICO do it on line (Information Commissioner's Office)
Make a complaint | ICO

[The Tech Clerk]

some complaints procedures can take a long time to follow and responded to via regulators also 8 weeks after a complaint can you lodge with the regulators, no easy way around it., I have waited nearly 2 years and only just beginning to investigate a case.

[Guest]

Hi again, i have my SAR now and its took a while to go through it and understand it. I now have a great deal of empathy for the Complaints Investigator that looked at it and refused it, its hard to understand unless you know specifically what you are looking for and the investigator did look. I see in the notes they did look and there was a lack of documentation from the time period i was concerned about. There is no financials at all for 1989 and 1990 . So the only way you can get clue is to read the correspondance, i'll try lay it out here , i hoping some here maybe able to help me understand it better..........

[Guest]

Statements from 1991 to 1993 :

[Guest]

Oh, i almost forgot......... i'm not able to calculate it but at the time there was MIRAS (Mortgage Interest Relief At Source) and i think that is what "RCR" refers too.