Extended Mortgage term and Buildings Insurance Premiums.

[Guest]

The £17 k figure is nothing more than an estimate. I started with an unknown value, a known term (370 months) a start date, and a few payment examples along the way. I was saying it was 5.3 in 1998, not 1993.

[Guest]

What i am trying to establish is what state the mortgage account was in on the 1st of Jan, 1993 when it was given a term of 30 years and 10 months.
Their own letters tell me i was quoted and paid and installment of £118 , that was when it was 12.75% . My maths tells me that it should of been a good bit higher, and even higher again when the rate raised to 13.5%. I've just looked now and i see the payments would of been about £170 when the rates hit 15% . At no point do i ever recall paying more than £120 a month, ever. Based on that certainley for 1989,1990,1991,1992 the account was going up. I think it is safe to say the mortgage at the start of 1993 would of been higher than when i started it in 1989 ?

Random question, if the installment of £118 was not enough, how long do you think a mortgage lender would let you go not paying the correct amount, one month,six months , a year or more ?

[Roger]

What i am trying to establish is what state the mortgage account was in on the 1st of Jan, 1993 when it was given a term of 30 years and 10 months.
Their own letters tell me i was quoted and paid and installment of £118 , that was when it was 12.75% . My maths tells me that it should of been a good bit higher, and even higher again when the rate raised to 13.5%. I've just looked now and i see the payments would of been about £170 when the rates hit 15% . At no point do i ever recall paying more than £120 a month, ever. Based on that certainley for 1989,1990,1991,1992 the account was going up. I think it is safe to say the mortgage at the start of 1993 would of been higher than when i started it in 1989 ?

Random question, if the installment of £118 was not enough, how long do you think a mortgage lender would let you go not paying the correct amount, one month,six months , a year or more ?

I am afraid you are missing details perhaps only known to the Lender.
I explain there is or was Forward Contracts. These offset risks by fixing terms for a duration. Racing Bookies for instance offset bets to cover themselves! Well Bankers are no different. The idea is that for a fixed term the Rates (interest etc. are prior fixed ).
This happened in my own Case with a mortgage which when taken was at a certain rate and duration. Much Much later it was turned into a fixed term (rate and duration) forward Contract. It only came to light when I asked for a final figure to clear the mortgage and was told sorry but its still got `X` years to run.

See the problem! Markets rates and modern practices BUT the Lender's contractual terms for whatever period have been later varied without telling YOU!
This is why I suggest you take or ask for Legal Advice.

Someone with a knowledge of this Lender and these Mortgages

[Guest]

Ok Thanks Roger. I suppose i can't do anything until they answer my complaint. They could of course just settle with me but i just want to be prepared incase they do not. Thats why i'm just trying to gather as much info and insight as i can.

[Still Waving]

The £17 k figure is nothing more than an estimate. I started with an unknown value, a known term (370 months) a start date, and a few payment examples along the way. I was saying it was 5.3 in 1998, not 1993.

OK, I was misled by the way you set it out - "I've used the mortgage calculator and played around with the interest rates from what i can fathom where in place in 1993. A 17K mortgage @ a rate of 5.3% gets me £93 a month, which is in keeping with what they say i was paying in 1998 too."

However, according to the table in the link I provided, the rate would likely have been between 7.5% and 8% in 1998. This is all conjecture and only the lender's documents will give the true picture. A Subject Access Request ought to provide the annual statements and the rates of interest. When the BoE rates go up lenders are quick to increase their rates, but when the BoE rate goes down, the lenders lag behind on reducing their rates.

There were so many rate changes during the period '89 to '93, that it is impossible to come up with accurate calculations without the lender's rates info.

[Still Waving]

I explain there is or was Forward Contracts. These offset risks by fixing terms for a duration. Racing Bookies for instance offset bets to cover themselves! Well Bankers are no different. The idea is that for a fixed term the Rates (interest etc. are prior fixed ).

I confess I don't know what you are talking about here. I worked for a building society for a few years in my early years, and I never came across the concept of Forward Contracts. In any event, what we have both said is that the OP needs the lender's rates information for any reasonably accurate estimates.

[Roger]

I confess I don't know what you are talking about here. I worked for a building society for a few years in my early years, and I never came across the concept of Forward Contracts. In any event, what we have both said is that the OP needs the lender's rates information for any reasonably accurate estimates.

Still Waving
I much appreciate your shared knowledge!

Banks were late entrants into the Mortgage Market! Their business and lending models were different from the mutual Building Society's. Ironically some Building Societies entered Banking!

Offsetting Risk through buying (at a cost) forward agreed terms was and is common in business.
It means at some future date , for a price, an agreed rate and a fixed currency exchange rate.
Forward Contracts enabled a Company to protect their business from variable current market variances in rates and or currency changes.

You see this with the Gas and Electric providers and their 12/24 month rate term buy ins!

Some Mortgages have these terms fixed for say 5 years and are then renegotiated.

In my Case this mortgage was until a certain Age and at a ridiculously low interest Rate. But the Bank had later tied these into a fixed term forward Contract (without advising ME). It meant that I had to pay (albeit a very low rate) until the End of that Contracted period!
Couldn't get out earlier because the Bank had fixed the terms and rates to a specific Future Date (brought a forward Contract)

True the Building Societies had these 30 years plus packages based around variable current rates.
Of which I lack your knowledge!!

So I am aware that with Debts and Lending practices have changed and varied! But offsetting Risk (Debts) shouldn't impact on Current Contractual Terms!
So in this Case its these Original Terms plus later advice that is an Issue! I can see that a business model could tie into a specific monthly payment (all inclusive)

All I am saying really is the need to look into and at the specific signed Mortgage in this Case. The devil of course is in the detail.

[Still Waving]

What i am trying to establish is what state the mortgage account was in on the 1st of Jan, 1993 when it was given a term of 30 years and 10 months.

I was having a look at this (very) late last night. As I've already said, it is impossible for us to know with any certainty without detailed info about the rates charged and the dates of the changes, and even then without access to actuarial tables. You mentioned 17K. I made a couple of very rough attempts, and came out with between 16k and 17K, likely around 16.5K, but I stress - don't place too much credence in that.

Get hold of copies of the annual statements via a SAR, would be my recommendation. They should show your balances at the start of each year.

[Guest]

Thanks Still Waving, i'll do a SAR right now. This gonna be fun my info should go back to 1988 when i was made my offers etc... I'll keep this updated. At least i do have an actual idea of what i am looking for now. Thanks again.

[Guest]

Ok SAR submitted when i said i'd do it. Done it by phone (1 and half hours), got reference number. Complaints contacted me today by phone too, to let me know they have my complaint and will answer me in "next few days" as they need to look back at it and go over stuff. Be a tense few days for me, wish me luck !! :-)

[Guest]

Ok, looks like this may be a slog for me. They've read out their response letter over the phone to me just now, i should physically have it tomorrow. But the jist of it is they are refusing my complaint. Several reasons, its "timed out"............. i should of complained within 6 months or 3 years of something or other. Also they have previously explained why the term extended and also i had the opportunity to correct the term back. Seeing as i have left it so long they assumed i was happy with the situation. I'll be offered recourse to FOS. I'll have to hope for a few things here i suppose: firstly that the FOS will look at it, also that my SAR reveals more info and i can nail down their mistake. Thats leaving aside the issue that they had no right to extend the term like that without informing me. Anyone any thoughts or insight ?

[Roger]

Ok, looks like this may be a slog for me. They've read out their response letter over the phone to me just now, i should physically have it tomorrow. But the jist of it is they are refusing my complaint. Several reasons, its "timed out"............. i should of complained within 6 months or 3 years of something or other. Also they have previously explained why the term extended and also i had the opportunity to correct the term back. Seeing as i have left it so long they assumed i was happy with the situation. I'll be offered recourse to FOS. I'll have to hope for a few things here i suppose: firstly that the FOS will look at it, also that my SAR reveals more info and i can nail down their mistake. Thats leaving aside the issue that they had no right to extend the term like that without informing me. Anyone any thoughts or insight ?

That's their opinion but of course they would say that wouldn't they!

Don't forget, as they seem to have, that a mortgage is by definition a Secured Debt over several decades.
As you were paying the requested amount, there would have been no reason for you to query anything!
How did you pay by the way DD or Standing Order?

[Guest]

Thanks Roger,

[Still Waving]

Hi

They took the line expected regarding the fact that you did not increase your repayments (I presume to a level which they quoted) in 1997, in order to get back to your original term.

You do seem to have an uphill struggle on your hands to make any headway, due to the time elapsed. However -

You do have a record of having raised queries in both 1997 and 2003, as you were concerned that something was not right. It would appear that they misled you by omission in their 1997 letter.

"prior to 1993 the term of the mortgage quoted was only approximate. Furthermore before 1993 the payment at interest rate changes was calculated on the previous registered installment and the balance outstanding on the account. The term was not related to the monthly payments as it is now."

What this paragraph is hiding is the implications of their practice, which subsequently blew up in their face between 1999 and 2007(?). (You didn't become aware/were not notified of this development during that period?)

The uphill struggle you have is that Santander seem intent on rejecting your complaint, and the FOS closed their file on the issue in 2007, and may not be minded to open that can again. You can but try the FOS, if that is Santander's Final Response, emphasising that you had raised issues on more than one occasion.

[Roger]

"..
But at least since 2000 or thereabouts i've always just popped in the branch and paid it over the counter and since about 2010 i've logged on my banking app and paid it through that. Thinking about it , i'm certain i always went in branch and paid it. This was pre internet days and i went to the shops to do my banking and pay my bills weekly.
.."

So you Paid it in at their counter? Did you have a payment booklet or was this manually made out by you? If you had a pre paid booklet DID they send it to you?
DD would have been originated by them!
SO off course is similar to you banking app instigated by you!

My point is contact with them! Their knowledge or otherwise of your paying habits!
It goes back to their knowing your habits and lack of communication!

Off course this is important as part of fighting this!