Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

[Undercover Elsa]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Oh yes indeed! A day of intense negotiations I'll never ever forget!!! He's actually a really nice guy too.

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Barclaycard #2 (old Egg Blue card)

Date commenced: Approx. 2004

Approx Balance £9,000

Date last paid : Token £5 payments on DMP until June 2014, nothing since then

Defaulted - Jan 2013

Account owner: Barclaycard

1/2 - Letters x 2 from Barclaycard "After reviewing your payments" we are now issuing a formal demand for payment (with threat of court action). Can avoid this by telephoning them and coming to a payment arrangement. And P.S we screwed up your CRA reporting. We're now correcting it and defaulting you.
24/2 - CCA request sent to Barclaycard for each card
23/7 - Reconstituted agreement (just two sets of T&Cs) received from Barclaycard
29/7 - "T&C's sent" letter sent to Barclaycard
13/8 - Response received from Barclaycard - "in response to your request for your application, please find enclosed". What was actually enclosed was a printout of a set of data from the 'alleged' internet application - name, address, employer, income etc. NO linked terms, more importantly not a signed credit agreement. I'm fairly sure this is but will scan and submit everything to Niddy just to be on the safe side, as it's a large amount of money. I think I'm also still going to have to press them a little harder on the matter of whether they hold a signed agreement as well, although we know that Egg are good at reconstituting if pushed, but this account is currently not being paid even token payments for the time being.
19/08 - Niddy confirms , advised to send T&C's received letter again - done

Update on this. Lengthy 3 page reply from Barclaycard quoting Carey and a few others. They consider the account to be fully enforceable and will pursue repayment.

It appears that stalemate has been reached and I'm concerned that if the standoff continues, the account will be heading for MKDP in the near future, with all the pain and suffering that entails. I'm really not sure where to go from here?

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Update on this. Lengthy 3 page reply from Barclaycard quoting Carey and a few others. They consider the account to be fully enforceable and will pursue repayment.

It appears that stalemate has been reached and I'm concerned that if the standoff continues, the account will be heading for MKDP in the near future, with all the pain and suffering that entails. I'm really not sure where to go from here?

Anyone..? Any ideas where to go next please? I thought creditors were not allowed to mislead re enforceability under FCA rules?

Should I maybe upload the letter to Niddy?

[MrsD]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Grassy that is a letter BC send out all the time, other creditors send their own versions.


I would wait and see what they do next, all part of UE's rich tapestry

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Grassy that is a letter BC send out all the time, other creditors send their own versions.

I would wait and see what they do next, all part of UE's rich tapestry

Thanks, MrsD. I will wait and prepare for a possible fight on this one.

[Enforcer]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Barclaycard Always consider that their agreements are enforceable. The FOS cannot rule on the enforceability of agreements, however they ruled in my case that Barclaycard were unable to comply with my CCA request. Could not supply a reconstituted agreement nor the prescribed terms. Thanks to Niddy I won in the end!

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Co-Op Platinum Card

Date commenced: Approx. 2004

Approx Balance £3500

Date last paid: June 2014

Defaulted: 2012?

Status: Wussy £5 token payments via StepChange up to June - nothing since then

Account owner: Co-Op

30/06 - CCA request sent to Co-Op
17/07 - Letter received from Co-Op. No CCA for you, son... "We first require a wet signature in order to verify your identity". They kindly enclose a stamped addressed envelope for this purpose.
18/08 - Bad copy of signed application form received (ie hard to read) but can't see any terms
19/08 - Uploaded docs to AAD for enforceability checking
20/08 - Niddy says - missing prescribed terms letter sent
16/09 - Reply from Co-Op : "Please find a larger copy of your agreement (blown up to A4 size but still barely legible and missing prescribed terms) - we note your comments regarding the previous copy but this is the best we are able to produce from our archives"


Well then, I think this is a wrap for now.... I'll wait and see what they do next.

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Mint Platinum Card

Date commenced: Approx. 2004

Approx Balance £3500

Date last paid: June 2014

Defaulted: 2012?

Status: Wussy £5 token payments via StepChange up to June - nothing since then

Account owner: RBS

30/07 - CCA request sent to Mint.
30/08 - Copy of application form plus 2 sets of T&Cs received from Mint. Looks possibly enforceable. Will scan and upload to Niddy by the end of the week [done]
17/09 - Weak collections letter received from Mint's 'Debt Recovery Office' - "we have noticed that payments are not being made in line with the special agreement. If payments are not brought up to date we may need to take further action"

While I'm waiting for Niddy to take a view on the agreement (I think this one IS probably ) I'll sit tight and see what they send next

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Mint Platinum Card

Date commenced: Approx. 2004

Approx Balance £3500

Date last paid: June 2014

Defaulted: 2012?

Status: Wussy £5 token payments via StepChange up to June - nothing since then

Account owner: RBS

30/07 - CCA request sent to Mint.
30/08 - Copy of application form plus 2 sets of T&Cs received from Mint. Looks possibly enforceable. Will scan and upload to Niddy by the end of the week [done]
17/09 - Weak collections letter received from Mint's 'Debt Recovery Office' - "we have noticed that payments are not being made in line with the special agreement. If payments are not brought up to date we may need to take further action"

While I'm waiting for Niddy to take a view on the agreement (I think this one IS probably ) I'll sit tight and see what they send next

Update 25/09 not heard anything on my previous CCA upload to AAD but I may treat this as enforceable for the time being as Mint's debt management office are sending stroppy letters - don't want it sold off to a debt purchaser if it is. And I have a strong feeling the CCA is solid.

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Update 25/09 not heard anything on my previous CCA upload to AAD but I may treat this as enforceable for the time being as Mint's debt management office are sending stroppy letters - don't want it sold off to a debt purchaser if it is. And I have a strong feeling the CCA is solid.

Update 26/09 - Niddy says Enforceable. Preparing offer of crappy token payments.

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Halifax Platinum Card

Date commenced: Approx. 2004

Approx Balance £9000

Date last paid: June 2014

Defaulted: 2012?

Status: Wussy £5 token payments via StepChange (July 2014 payment missed due to lack of funds)

Account owner: Aktiv Kapital


30/06 - CCA request sent to Aktiv Kapital
15/07 - Response from AK. Acknowledging request for agreement under S 77-79 of the CCA. Will endeavour to obtain documents within the prescribed time frames. Have put the collection process on hold until the information is provided.
06/10 - Letter from AK enclosing documents. Further to your request here are the documents. Payment proposals within 14 days or we will take further action.

CCA response consists of loads of monthly statements plus some printed terms and conditions with my name and address blue-petered onto the top. NO signed agreement. Thing is, they have screwed up even with the T&C's because they've put my current address onto it and not the address I was living at when I allegedly took out the agreement. This is good! I could send the no agreement template letter but since the problems run deeper than that, I think a blend of the T&C's received template plus the Prescribed Terms template should hopefully do the trick. I'm going to set out the problems with the agreement and invite them to take a commercial view and close the account.

If anyone has a view as to whether this is a correct or poor response to send, please speak, LOL. I'm not going to bother Niddy with it because it's clearly unenforceable, however.

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Lloyds Platinum Mastercard

Date commenced: Approx. 2004

Approx Balance £4900

Date last paid: June 2014

Defaulted: 2012?

Status: Wussy £5 token payments via StepChange (July 2014 payment missed due to lack of funds)

Account owner: Lloyds (was outsourced to Robbers Way to harrass me despite being on a DMP - after complaint made, Robbers Way returned a/c to Lloyds)

30/06 - CCA request sent to Lloyds
13/07 - Now this is just odd. I've received a single sheet (on Lloyds headed paper) statement for the last 10 months - no letter, nothing. The letter also has Robbers Way name and address instead of Lloyds where the sender's address goes. Perhaps there is more to come, as I hear Lloyds are quite handy with the scissors and glue?
06/10 - Letter from Lloyds - as we have not been able to come to a repayment arrangement, we've instructed a Debt Collection Agency, Akinika (aka Crappy Knickers) to arrange collection of the outstanding debt. Please contact Crappy Knickers as soon as possible on this number xxxx xxxx. Scary stuff indeed (not) - I've changed my phone numbers and place of work, LOL
06/10 - I'll just remind them that they are still in default of my Section 78 request....

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

RBS Mastercard

Date commenced: Approx. 2002

Approx Balance £1700

Date last paid: June 2014

Defaulted: September 2014

11/10 - After letter-based threats culminating in a doorstep visit from a collector (not answered...), I have now received a letter that my debt has been outsourced to Apex Credit Management to collect (a division of Cabot...). I'll just sit tight on this one. They've not purchased the debt, they can't do anything except send threatening letters. I'll save the CCA request for when the debt eventually gets sold off.

[Spud]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

Halifax Platinum Card

Date commenced: Approx. 2004

Approx Balance £9000

Date last paid: June 2014

Defaulted: 2012?

Status: Wussy £5 token payments via StepChange (July 2014 payment missed due to lack of funds)

Account owner: Aktiv Kapital


30/06 - CCA request sent to Aktiv Kapital
15/07 - Response from AK. Acknowledging request for agreement under S 77-79 of the CCA. Will endeavour to obtain documents within the prescribed time frames. Have put the collection process on hold until the information is provided.
06/10 - Letter from AK enclosing documents. Further to your request here are the documents. Payment proposals within 14 days or we will take further action.

CCA response consists of loads of monthly statements plus some printed terms and conditions with my name and address blue-petered onto the top. NO signed agreement. Thing is, they have screwed up even with the T&C's because they've put my current address onto it and not the address I was living at when I allegedly took out the agreement. This is good! I could send the no agreement template letter but since the problems run deeper than that, I think a blend of the T&C's received template plus the Prescribed Terms template should hopefully do the trick. I'm going to set out the problems with the agreement and invite them to take a commercial view and close the account.

If anyone has a view as to whether this is a correct or poor response to send, please speak, LOL. I'm not going to bother Niddy with it because it's clearly unenforceable, however.

I certainly would recommend against letting these fools know exactly what is wrong as you will then give them the opportunity to put it right!

With my Halifax card there were loads of issues just like yours. I said nothing. I waited about a month between replies to string it out, Sent them some very vague letters to string it out some more then finally about 8 months later sent a missing prescribed terms type letter.

What you have ( or don't have) is brilliant......Just what you want in fact. We never take the fight to them do we........Just reply with more legislation to confuse them even further!

There were so many issues that when they issued a claim ( Direct from Halifax) and I submitted my defence, They were forced to discontinue and pay my costs.

Moral of the story.......If they knew the faults they would have fudged something together and tried their luck. As it was, They were beat hands down and had to back out......End result £12K gone.

I'm happy to explain in a bit more detail if you are worried but my advice especially with AK......Play dumb for now and keep sending the same/ Template letter ect as required

[Grassy_K]

Re: Grassy_K's Unenforceability Diary

I certainly would recommend against letting these fools know exactly what is wrong as you will then give them the opportunity to put it right!

With my Halifax card there were loads of issues just like yours. I said nothing. I waited about a month between replies to string it out, Sent them some very vague letters to string it out some more then finally about 8 months later sent a missing prescribed terms type letter.

What you have ( or don't have) is brilliant......Just what you want in fact. We never take the fight to them do we........Just reply with more legislation to confuse them even further!

There were so many issues that when they issued a claim ( Direct from Halifax) and I submitted my defence, They were forced to discontinue and pay my costs.

Moral of the story.......If they knew the faults they would have fudged something together and tried their luck. As it was, They were beat hands down and had to back out......End result £12K gone.

I'm happy to explain in a bit more detail if you are worried but my advice especially with AK......Play dumb for now and keep sending the same/ Template letter ect as required

Thanks Spud. I'm afraid the letter has already gone out to them:

In July 2014 I wrote requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for the above numbered account.

In response to this request I was supplied a document, that can only be described as unsigned Terms & Conditions - I must ask, since when did Terms become a legal document; namely a Consumer Credit Agreement that should, by rights, contain several Prescribed Terms?

I only want you to send me a "true copy" of the actual agreement that apparently exists, and I therefore appeal to you to fulfil my request. I am willing to pay any reasonable charge that you feel is necessary, in order to provide a copy of the “actual” credit agreement.

In considering my request, I ask that you take a common sense approach and do not hold to the line that you have provided all that is expected of you nor the recent test case in Manchester, namely, and to be known as: Carey v HSBC Bank Plc [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB) (23 December 2009). The recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA.

Whilst I appreciate and understand the provision of the recent Carey v HSBC {and others} case that stipulates a reconstituted agreement can be provided, I would like to point out that it does not say you can simply send some generic random terms.
In order to be able to adjudge my position effectively I would require a "true copy" of the actual agreement that apparently exists.

Furthermore, the “Terms” document provided contains several errors and anomalies that would render it improper even if signed and dated. For example, it purports to be an agreement made in 2002, yet the address at the top of Page 1 I didn’t even move to until December 2007. This fraudulent document has been kept safe in the event that any speculative attempt at enforcement is made in the future.

For the above reasons, I consider this account to be in dispute and completely unenforceable until such time you properly comply with my original request and send a copy of the original purported document, if it exists. If it does not, then you must confirm this to me.

If the document does not exist and you are unable to provide it, I invite you to take a commercial view on this matter and close the account.

Yours, etc.

I can see your point. I hope I haven't buggered things up. My aim was to get them to close the account and not issue a claim in the first place.