Extended Mortgage term and Buildings Insurance Premiums.

[Roger]

marylikes
The CCA 74 has seen over the years changes at various times. You have highlighted section 82 variation of agreements and the requirement for notice of variation.
I had a particular Case where the Lender had closed a CCA Credit Card for inaction (without advising) then carried on as if the Closure had never happened. Well you will appreciate that the failure to do this as required within the CCA74 meant that it later became UE.

But the CCA 74 I stress varied over time with Legal changes and requirements.
This is precisely the reason for my suggestion that you seek clarity and legal advice.

I do understand that you may be frustrated by FOS but if the Lender has actually broken that CCA78 agreement irrespective of FOS you may have legal right of redress under the CCA74 (which is a Consumer Credit Act)

Case Law especially is found outside of the CCA74 legislation. Often a understanding of an interpretation of a Section(s) within the Act including earlier and or later Amendments.

I can only repeat seek advice

[Guest]

Yes, i'll do that Roger. For now though i have not got my CCA request back yet, and i've almost a month to wait for a reply to my pre claim. Where they will go with it or how they will address it is anyones guess. But i can guess they won't want to return £36K to me lightly. Their responses will guide my next move.

[Roger]

Yes, i'll do that Roger. For now though i have not got my CCA request back yet, and i've almost a month to wait for a reply to my pre claim. Where they will go with it or how they will address it is anyones guess. But i can guess they won't want to return £36K to me lightly. Their responses will guide my next move.

That's good news! You are a fighter and have dug and delved through a quagmire of data and facts. BUT the Consumer Credit Act is precisely to protect US the Consumers

Now I don't know what a 30 year Old CCA74 Mortgage would or should look like but there are as you realise certain key Sections that concern the Lenders rights and duties to the borrower. It could be that the most important finding is that the CCA74 applied to your Mortgage.

[Guest]

Not sure how i missed this one. I'm keeping the postman busy if nothing else.

Got an answer, i can't make head nor tail of it?

[Guest]

CCA request sent off by post along with £1 cheque.

.

Just remembered, i still not got this request yet. The cheque was cashed on 28th June. I rang them up 8th July and they said "a letter" had been sent out on 29thJune, they wouldn't divulge the contents but where happy to divulge the contents of the above letter dated 6th July .. I told them i got nothing, so they said will re send but still nothing. I had done a standard CCA request for copy of agreement and statement of account to date.

[Roger]

Just remembered, i still not got this request yet. The cheque was cashed on 28th June. I rang them up 8th July and they said "a letter" had been sent out on 29thJune, they wouldn't divulge the contents but where happy to divulge the contents of the above letter dated 6th July .. I told them i got nothing, so they said will re send but still nothing. I had done a standard CCA request for copy of agreement and statement of account to date.

Did you send the AAD S.78 template request?
The CCA and Terms at start should be sent and also Terms as at the End of the Agreement or as at today if the agreement is still current.
It is these Contractual terms that should explain the computation of Debt and interest


But you never set Out a Diary here so it means going though 16 pages of memos etc..

You have had sterling assistance from Still Waving

You should NOW send for a DSAR which is reportable after 30 days!
I really can't comment on your Non receipt of Letters to your address , which they have been writing to for years?
Send for the DSAR to find out what happened and when the CCA 74 Mortgage became something else!

It will be boxes of information BUT at least it should be everything they HOLD!

Can't comment really on anything else.

[Guest]

But you never set Out a Diary here so it means going though 16 pages of memos etc..

You have had sterling assistance from Still Waving

You should NOW send for a DSAR which is reportable after 30 days!

Hi Roger, i never set out a diary, as this thread was initially just a question over something i felt was wrong. Thanks to help and advice here i am now understanding just what that wrong was. I already have my DSAR.

[Guest]

Today i have recieved a copy of a letter sent to me on June20th. It was detailing my expected monthly payments for years 1989 and year 1990. I never asked for a copy of this letter, its been sent in error or obtusely. I have called them on the phone today. I told them i still have no response to my CCA request (for agreement and statement of account) that i sent on 20th June. They said they would action it right away and they have no record of my request. I should expect my request in about 5 days. I told them i had this same conversation last Friday, and could i speak to someone else over the matter, i was told no i couldn't (speak to anyone else over it). It will go to "Admin Team" who are not public facing. I told them the cheque i sent for £1 had been cashed, so it should of been actioned and someone has recieved the request, i was told they will look into it.

My gut instinct to what has happened here is that as they have looked at what they need to send under the CCA request, they have realised that they need to send a copy of a "modifying agreement" as per the modification in 1993. They do not have one, i've never been sent one. Their own correspondance confirms i was never notified of any modification. That is a major problem, as the agreement cannot take effect "unless" i have notice of it[in the prescribed manner]. Infact S82 (1) CCA74 prohibits any such unilateral change from taking place "unless" .

I posted my pre claim to them on 30th June, which, basically alleges this. So they have probably held back sending me anything as it will incriminate themselves and they need to decide what to do. Consumer Credit Sourcebook (CONC) states this [in relation to CCA request]:

(6) If the agreement has been varied, the duty is to provide not only a
copy of the agreement as originally executed but also either:
(a) a copy of the latest variation given in accordance with section
82(1) of theCCA relating to each discrete term of the agreement
which has been varied; or,
(b) a clear statement of the terms of the agreement as varied


As they do not have one then the previous section should come into play, which basically makes my case :

(5) If the reason why no copy is given in response to a request under
these sections is that there never was an executed agreement, the
firm should acknowledge this in its response.

I'm struggling to see their next move if i'm honest. I've a hunch i'll find out this week coming though.

[Roger]

Today i have recieved a copy of a letter sent to me on June20th. It was detailing my expected monthly payments for years 1989 and year 1990. I never asked for a copy of this letter, its been sent in error or obtusely. I have called them on the phone today. I told them i still have no response to my CCA request (for agreement and statement of account) that i sent on 20th June. They said they would action it right away and they have no record of my request. I should expect my request in about 5 days. I told them i had this same conversation last Friday, and could i speak to someone else over the matter, i was told no i couldn't (speak to anyone else over it). It will go to "Admin Team" who are not public facing. I told them the cheque i sent for £1 had been cashed, so it should of been actioned and someone has recieved the request, i was told they will look into it.

My gut instinct to what has happened here is that as they have looked at what they need to send under the CCA request, they have realised that they need to send a copy of a "modifying agreement" as per the modification in 1993. They do not have one, i've never been sent one. Their own correspondance confirms i was never notified of any modification. That is a major problem, as the agreement cannot take effect "unless" i have notice of it[in the prescribed manner]. Infact S82 (1) CCA74 prohibits any such unilateral change from taking place "unless" .

I posted my pre claim to them on 30th June, which, basically alleges this. So they have probably held back sending me anything as it will incriminate themselves and they need to decide what to do. Consumer Credit Sourcebook (CONC) states this [in relation to CCA request]:

(6) If the agreement has been varied, the duty is to provide not only a
copy of the agreement as originally executed but also either:
(a) a copy of the latest variation given in accordance with section
82(1) of theCCA relating to each discrete term of the agreement
which has been varied; or,
(b) a clear statement of the terms of the agreement as varied


As they do not have one then the previous section should come into play, which basically makes my case :

(5) If the reason why no copy is given in response to a request under
these sections is that there never was an executed agreement, the
firm should acknowledge this in its response.

I'm struggling to see their next move if i'm honest. I've a hunch i'll find out this week coming though.

You are winding yourself UP.

I ADVISED SENDING A DSAR the reason is they could delay dealing with your S.78 request because you have been paying haven't you? If it never turns up where then do you go?

The DSAR is a right to ALL Data they hold on you! They delay you report them!! Its this simple.

DSAR don't speculate see what they send they have 30 days!

[Guest]

Hi Roger, thanks for your interest and support. I have sent a DSAR, i have it . To answer your question of......."if it never turns up where do i go?"........... I've already gone there..............

PRE ACTION NOTICE OF CONSUMER CREDIT ACT CLAIM




Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you to lay out the facts of my claim against you under the Consumer Credit Act:

My agreement which is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act began on 23^rd January 1989. It was an advance of £13,375.69, repayable over 25 years at the Standard Variable rate of interest on a straightforward repayment basis. Account number SPxxxxxxx.




On the 1^st January, 1993 my account was modified. It became an “Arranged Repayment Schedule” . It got a start balance of £13,301.75 repayable over 31 years (or 370 months). It was given a new account number, 09xxxxxxxxxxx.




It took me another four years until 1997 to find out quite by chance that my mortgage account had longer to run than I expected or knew about. No one had bothered to inform me. S82 of the Consumer Act sets out the requirements for such variations. S82(1) precludes a unilateral variation of agreement by a firm from taking effect unless notice is given to the debtor or hirer in the prescribed manner.




In doing exactly what the Act prohibits this lends itself to my claim under S140A (1) of the Consumer Act of an Unfair Relationship. To compound matters, when I did find out my agreement had longer to run I was told several times between the period 1997 to 2002 that everything was as it should be and I was mislead and misdirected as to how this had come about as a result of what I had done or had not done. My lack of knowledge of the Consumer Act was preyed on, and I would be paying in effect an extra 10 years mortgage. This dismissal of my concerns has carried on into 2021. And infact nothing has changed since 1993, the agreement is still precluded from taking effect. But I have been paying it to date.




There are other issues with the account since inception, including monthly repayments inconsistent with the interest rate. An incorrectly functioning arrears balance system, posting of annual interest before the close of business etc. These issues are peripheral and maybe superfluous to my claim against you at present, but if you want more detail over them matters I am happy to provide more detail. The above breaches of the Consumer Act are fatal to the agreement and relationship between us, which is still ongoing.




A remedy through the Courts could entail a refund of all monies paid, ie. principal and interest. Or a refund of all interest paid, and may include 8% interest flat. With that in mind if you acknowledge the claim I am prepared to listen to any offer to remedy matters. If you do not acknowledge the claim let me know which facts or part(s) of the claim are disputed.




I would expect a reply within 28 days,

Yours Faithfully,

xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxx.

[Roger]

marylikes
This my problem " But you never set Out a Diary here so it means going though 16 pages of memos etc.. "

You have the DSAR evidence of
".. My agreement which is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act began on 23^rd January 1989. It was an advance of £13,375.69, repayable over 25 years at the Standard Variable rate of interest on a straightforward repayment basis. Account number SPxxxxxxx.

On the 1^st January, 1993 my account was modified. It became an “Arranged Repayment Schedule” . It got a start balance of £13,301.75 repayable over 31 years (or 370 months). It was given a new account number, 09xxxxxxxxxxx.
.."

Really that is all you need because of the CCA74 is a Consumer Credit Act there are duties within the ACT .
The Change of account number SEEMS to suggest the CCA was Closed sic old Account number
Now with CCA there are process advices etc which must be given in specific formats and timescales else the Account becomes UE

The DSAR apparently doesn't show that letters etc Closing the CCA account exist! Does it

Next step is talk to Colin G Quinn

With this DSAR evidence first interview is free!
Because I don't know what a CCA74 Mortgage looks like or what must be included within the CCA74 Act especially in 1989 AND as at 1st January 1993.

The question immediately is I presume and unsigned NEW non CCA74 account ( apparently whose terms and conditions have never been informed )

Talk to Colin G Quinn

[Guest]

I have taken the liberty to ask Colin already for some initial advice and thoughts and options.

Also S173 CCA, it is not possible to contract an agreement out of the CCA.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...39/section/173


Your other observations are correct. What they have done is fatal to their own made up agreement. I'll let you know how i get on. They could send me the info i require with a disclaimer its unenforcable, and thus enforce my case they have been taking money off me for 30 +years with no right. I suppose they could also ignore that fact and just send me my initial agreement and see what i will do next, risky .......as i have told them i will escalate it through the Courts. They could also just make me an offer to settle? I'm struggling hard to see a potential defense for them really.

It'll all come out in the wash ............ as ya gran would say...............

[Roger]

marylikes

Tactics come into the equation, plus Case Law, which is probably unknown to Us.

The DSAR contents becomes their statement of Facts!

But I can see they could simply file your S.78 request away, couldn't they, without ever replying!
Also there is the impact on your credit over the years comes to mind.

Knowledge of the Law can snooker you! Enough that there are more questions than answers.
You are to close to this matter perhaps for your own good and it can blinker your vision.

My advise is in this Case listen to Colin G Quinn
I hope at some point to here a successful solution from you over this!

[Guest]

marylikes


But I can see they could simply file your S.78 request away, couldn't they, without ever replying!
!

Thats probably not possible. I havn't been paying my mortgage for a few months now, not that its a particular problem at present as i'm in credit. But the credit will soon run out.

[Roger]

Thats probably not possible. I havn't been paying my mortgage for a few months now, not that its a particular problem at present as i'm in credit. But the credit will soon run out.

Here is the issue 23^rd January 1989 CCA74 DEBT 25 years - straightforward repayment basis. Was there PPI with this?
changed 1^st January, 1993 (thats 4 years later and on paper your outstanding term was 25-4 = 21 years)

To this 21 years they added another 10years making 31 years.
A 25 year Mortgage became a 35 year Mortgage and it seems under new interest terms etc.. in a Non CCA74 Debt called Arranged Repayment Schedule.

Now the point is this wasn't New Money it was De Facto a Debt covered by CCA74 (Consumer Credit Act) . The question arises as to whether the Original CCA74 was or wasn't EN and also whether they have followed the terms within that CCA74 Agreement in closing and or otherwise that Agreement!

Its your rights under a Consumer Credit Act 1974 Agreement that are the real issue here.