Invisible Man's UE diary

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

Since this is a £20k loan I wouldn't expect PRA to give up without a fight so now would be a good time to send a SAR to Barclays to see what information they hold about you.

There's a template here > http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...l=1#post495040

Do you have any other debts which were owned by Barclays originally because one SAR will cover them all.

Di

Yes I also have a Barclays current account in default from the same period, for which I get letters from CDCS, and also a Barclaycard which has been bought by Cabot. I will send off the SAR. Do I need to address it to anyone in particular at Barclays, e.g. data controller?

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

I will send off the SAR. Do I need to address it to anyone in particular at Barclays, e.g. data controller?

You can start the Barclays' SAR process online here > https://www.apply.barclays.co.uk/for...execution=e1s1

Di

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

Thank you Di, that's very helpful

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

MBNA

Credit card
Date commenced: 2001
Balance approx: £11,000
Date last full payment: 2009
Currently not paying
Status in arrears, defaulted 2009
Account owner: Hillesden Securities aka Direct Legal & Collections

Key:
Red text = creditor action
blue text = my action
green text = comment

2009
April 1. DMP offer made. (NB MBNA accept DMP payments every month until June 2011)
June 2. Letter from MBNA rejecting DMP offer!
Sept 9th 3. Demand letter from MBNA
Sept 25th 4. CCA request sent to MBNA
Oct 8th 5. MBNA reply to 4. above, with copy of agreement & separate T&Cs
Oct 9th 6. MBNA send sec 87 default notice
Oct 19th 7. MBNA send letter informing me they have sold the account to “Direct Legal (Dtl)”
Oct 26th 8. Letter from Direct Legal & Collections (dlc) that the account has been sold to “Hillesden, trading as Direct Legal & Collections (dlc)”
Nov 9th 9. Demand letter from dlc
Nov 14th 10. "Account in Dispute" Letter sent to MBNA, challenging the enforceability of the improperly executed agreement sent at 5. above
Nov 19th 11. “Notice of debt recovery” from dlc on behalf of Hillesden
Nov 24th 12. Letter from Hillesden in response to 10. above, admitting they cannot produce a copy of the agreement
Dec 16th 13. Letter from MBNA in response to 10. above, stating my objections “are not well founded” and "unacceptable"
2010
Jan 7th 14. Letter sent to Hillesden in response to 11. above, requesting all relevant documentation under the CPR
Jan 28th 15. A 2nd Sec 87 default notice received, from dlc “on behalf of Hillesden”
Feb 10th 16. Letter from Hillesden in response to 14. above, stating they are waiting for a copy of the original default notice from MBNA. They also enclose a “copy” of the agreement, but it is different to 5. above, as the T&Cs have an additional paragraph not in the earlier copy sent to me
Feb 19th 17. Letter from Hillesden quoting McGuffick v RBS, and admitting they “may not be able to enforce the agreement until the documentation is provided”, but will continue collection action anyway
May 19th 18. Letter from Hillesden stating that enclosed is a copy of the original default notice from MBNA, and that they will continue collection action. However there is no copy of default enclosed.
Throughout all the above, and continuing until June 2011 when the DMP started paying Hillesden, MBNA happily received DMP payments, even though they claim to have sold the account in 2009.
2016
March Letter from dlc informing me that the account has been bought by "ME 111 Limited", and stating that ME 111 Limited and Hillesden Securities are both part of the "Cabot Credit Management Group". Also says "although ME 11 Limited are the legal and beneficial owners of your account, you should continue to communicate with, and make payments, to your current service provider" - not sure if that refers to dlc or Hillesden?
2017
June 15th Letter from dlc providing statement of account for the last 6 years. States creditor name as MBNA
June Agreement sent to Niddy for checking

June 25thNiddy says the agreement is fairly illegible, and as it stands Advised to send illegibility template if they pursue it.

Update: I've just found a letter in my files, dated March 2016, from dlc (I've now inserted it into the timeline above), informing me that "ME 111 Limited" bought the account from Hillesden, and that they are both part of the "Cabot Credit Management Group". Should I send anything off to any of them, or sit tight for now?
July 5thLetter received from Cabot Financial Europe stating that Cabot Credit Management Group owns the account. (Doesn't mention assignment so I read it as already owns...) and goes on to say the account has been transferred from dlc to Cabot Financial, "in order to continue providing you with the best possible service"

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

Thank you Di, that's very helpful

Not really - I've only just realised that the Barclays SAR link times-out if you don't interact with it quick enough. You'll have to Google it again.

Di

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

Not really - I've only just realised that the Barclays SAR link times-out if you don't interact with it quick enough. You'll have to Google it again.

Di

It was helpful, really, because I hadn't realised there was the online facility. I sussed the time out and found it quickly

[InvisibleMan]

Invisible Man's UE Diary

BARCLAYCARD

Credit card
Date commenced: 2005
Approx balance: £200
Date last full payment: 2009
Currently not paying
Status in arrears, defaulted twice in 2009/10
Account owner: Cabot

This is the smallest debt, but strangely the only one still showing on my credit file, as it was registered by Cabot in 2011 (can they do that?) so will fall off in a few months anyway. Barclaycard was never able to produce an agreement of any description. I can't recall applying for it, but I was a Barclays customer and had already had another Barclaycard since the 1990s, at one point having both at the same time.

Key:
Red text = creditor action
blue text = my action
green text = comment

2009
April 1. DMP offer made. (Barclaycard accept the DMP payments every month until Nov 2011, before selling to Cabot)
October 2. Sec 87 default notice from Mercers, accompanied by threat of court action
2010
Jan 7^th 3. Send letter to Mercers requesting documentation under the CPR
Jan 11^th 4. Demand letter from Calder Financial
Jan 22^nd 5. Barclaycard reply to 3. above, and state they will “send credit agreement under separate cover”. This has never been sent.
Jan 22^nd 6. Barclaycard also send separately a copy of up to date T&Cs
Feb 3^rd 7. SAR letter sent to Barclaycard
Mar 9th 8. Response from Barclaycard to SAR. Includes old statements, letters etc, but no agreement
Mar 11^th 10. 2^nd Sec 87 default notice from Mercers
2011
Nov 11. Letter from Barclaycard informing me they have sold the account to Cabot
Dec 12. Letter from Cabot referencing transfer of the account
2017
May 13. Notice of arrears from Cabot
June 11. Notice of arrears from Cabot
June 20 s.77-79 request sent to Cabot

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Re: Invisible Man's UE Diary

BARCLAYCARD

Credit card
Date commenced: 2005
Approx balance: £200
Date last paid: early 2017
Currently not paying
Status in arrears, defaulted twice in 2009/10
Account owner: Cabot

This is the smallest debt, but strangely the only one still showing on my credit file, as it was registered by Cabot in 2011 (can they do that?) so will fall off in a few months anyway. Barclaycard was never able to produce an agreement of any description. I can't recall applying for it, but I was a Barclays customer and had already had another Barclaycard since the 1990s, at one point having both at the same time.

Key:
Red text = creditor action
blue text = my action
green text = comment

2009
April 1. DMP offer made. (Barclaycard accept the DMP payments every month until Nov 2011, before selling to Cabot)
October 5^th 2. Sec 87 default notice from Mercers, accompanied by threat of court action
2010
Jan 7^th 3. Send letter to Mercers requesting documentation under the CPR
Jan 11^th 4. Demand letter from Calder Financial
Jan 22^nd 5. Barclaycard reply to 3. above, and state they will “send credit agreement under separate cover”. This has never been sent.
Jan 22^nd 6. Barclaycard also send separately a copy of up to date T&Cs
Feb 3^rd 7. SAR letter sent to Barclaycard
Mar 9th 8. Response from Barclaycard to SAR. Includes old statements, letters etc, but no agreement
Mar 11^th 10. 2^nd Sec 87 default notice from Mercers
2011
Nov 11. Letter from Barclaycard informing me they have sold the account to Cabot
Dec 12. Letter from Cabot referencing transfer of the account
2017
May 13. Notice of arrears from Cabot

What should be the next step, a CCA request to Cabot?

Unless I've misunderstood what you've posted you've no record of sending a CCA Request to anyone for this debt.

If that's the case then send one to Cabot.

It may be a small debt but you might as well future-proof yourself against the faff of dealing with a court claim if/when it happens. The CCA Request costs nothing except the price of a 1st Class Stamp and the additional charge for Royal Mail Recorded Delivery plus a £1 postal order.

You have sent (or are about to send) a SAR to Barclays so that'll be useful.

I note that that you say your DN was issued/served by Mercers not Barclaycard.

Di

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE Diary

Unless I've misunderstood what you've posted you've no record of sending a CCA Request to anyone for this debt.

If that's the case then send one to Cabot.

It may be a small debt but you might as well future-proof yourself against the faff of dealing with a court claim if/when it happens. The CCA Request costs nothing except the price of a 1st Class Stamp and the additional charge for Royal Mail Recorded Delivery plus a £1 postal order.

You have sent (or are about to send) a SAR to Barclays so that'll be useful.

I note that that you say your DN was issued/served by Mercers not Barclaycard.

Di

I have no record nor recollection of sending a CCA request although one of the letters sent to me in Jan 2010 appears to be a response to a Sec78 request. I just don't have a copy of any letter I may have sent to them. In their letter they acknowledged they must supply me with a copy of the executed agreement, and stated it would be sent under separate cover. However after that they never sent it. All they sent was most recent T&Cs. Shortly after I sent them a SAR, but again, no copy of the agreement was included. I don't possess a copy of the agreement and don't recall ever seeing one.

Both default notices I received came from Mercers "acting as agents for Barclays Bank plc"

Thanks for the advice Di.

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

NORTHERN ROCK

Unsecured loan
Date commenced: 2006
Approx balance: £12,000
Date last full payment: 2009
Currently not paying
Status in arrears, defaulted 2011
Account owner: Cabot

Key:
Red text = creditor action
blue text = my action
green text = comment

2009
April DMP started
2010
Oct Letter from Northern Rock stating loan now managed by NRAM
2011
Sept Sec 87 default notice from NRAM, even though the DMP has been up and running for over 2 years and no payments missed
Oct Letter from NRAM to say loan sold to Marlin
Oct NoA received from Marlin
2015
Feb Letter from Marlin advising they are now part of Cabot
2017
Apr Chase letter from Cabot ignored
May Chase letter from Cabot ignored
June 16th s77-79 request to Cabot
June 22ndChase letter from Cabot. Ignored

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Re: Invisible Man's UE Diary

I have no record nor recollection of sending a CCA request although one of the letters sent to me in Jan 2010 appears to be a response to a Sec78 request. I just don't have a copy of any letter I may have sent to them. In their letter they acknowledged they must supply me with a copy of the executed agreement, and stated it would be sent under separate cover. However after that they never sent it. All they sent was most recent T&Cs. Shortly after I sent them a SAR, but again, no copy of the agreement was included.

If you previously sent them a SAR was your CCA Request and their reply included in the response? Have you kept their reply letter or are you working from memory?

You've got a new SAR Request in the pipeline so maybe wait until you get that to check before sending a new CCA Request to Cabot. It should be showing in the Transaction Log even if your original letter (CCA Request) wasn't scanned and saved.

Credit agreements can be reconstituted from information held on the original creditor's database as long as it's 'honest and accurate' so don't get overly excited if the actual scanned copy doesn't exist.

And while you're getting everything sorted it may make sense to send a SAR to your DMP provider because sometimes creditors send statutory notices to them because they're acting as your agent.

Since you were in your DMP for 8 years some of those debts may have changed hands and the Notice of Assignment may have been sent to them (DMP). They're not supposed to do that but DJs can be biased against perceived "debt avoiders" so it's best not to give them any opportunity to argue the toss.

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

NORTHERN ROCK

Unsecured loan
Date commenced: 2006
Approx balance: £12,000
Date last paid: early 2017
Currently not paying
Status in arrears, defaulted 2011
Account owner: Cabot

Key:
Red text = creditor action
blue text = my action
green text = comment

2009
April DMP started
2010
Oct Letter from Northern Rock stating loan now managed by NRAM
2011
Sept Sec 87 default notice from NRAM, even though the DMP has been up and running for over 2 years and no payments missed
Oct Letter from NRAM to say loan sold to Marlin
Oct NoA received from Marlin
2015
Feb Letter from Marlin advising they are now part of Cabot
2017
Apr Chase letter from Cabot ignored
May Chase letter from Cabot ignored

How much was the loan when you took it out and how long was the term if it had run its natural length (5 years at a guess)? Sometimes the Default date is relative to that depending on when you missed contractual payments and when the account was terminated etc.

Was this Northern Rock loan part of their Together Mortgage product? Probably not, but I thought I should check.

Cabot will start to get pushy because of the size of the debt, so decide whether you want to wait or whether you'd rather send your CCA Request now to see if It's flawed. You can make your decision if they pass it to Mortimer Clark solicitors or outsource it to Restons or Shoosmiths etc.

Di

[MisterK]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

Hello Di

I'm not wanting to burst in on Invisible Man's thread in any way so happy to go away or raise the query elsewhere if instructed etc but could I just ask you about a point you made earlier which is:

"Credit agreements can be reconstituted from information held on the original creditor's database as long as it's 'honest and accurate' so don't get overly excited if the actual scanned copy doesn't exist."

The question I have really is does this "honest & accurate" comment affect unenforceability as we know it (as a defence against a claim). So what I mean by that is, has something come about in a recent case for example which throws up a new difficulty for us all, or has nothing changed and it's just the usual situation that the creditor's database simply enables the creditor to meet the requirements of s.78 (which has always been the case).

I expect Niddy would repeat that without the signed agreement then how would they know that the T&C in a recon were the correct ones etc, so am just wondering if "honest & accurate" is a new potential threat of some kind.

Once again apologies if I'm breaking convention by raising a point within a member's thread in this way.

Hope you don't mind me poking my nose in on your thread Invisible, I'm just a few months ahead of you with this "journey" and with similar figures. Also like you I will also have the problem of whether or not to make a new address known in the not too distant future. Myself I think I will want to make my new address easily available on the basis that any sneaky CCJ obtained by posting documents to a previous address would then cause the creditor to be on the back foot when challenged. Assuming I found out about it of course - there is a website where you can check for CCJ's, although only after the event I think.

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE Diary

If you previously sent them a SAR was your CCA Request and their reply included in the response? Have you kept their reply letter or are you working from memory?

You've got a new SAR Request in the pipeline so maybe wait until you get that to check before sending a new CCA Request to Cabot. It should be showing in the Transaction Log even if your original letter (CCA Request) wasn't scanned and saved.

Credit agreements can be reconstituted from information held on the original creditor's database as long as it's 'honest and accurate' so don't get overly excited if the actual scanned copy doesn't exist.

And while you're getting everything sorted it may make sense to send a SAR to your DMP provider because sometimes creditors send statutory notices to them because they're acting as your agent.

Since you were in your DMP for 8 years some of those debts may have changed hands and the Notice of Assignment may have been sent to them (DMP). They're not supposed to do that but DJs can be biased against perceived "debt avoiders" so it's best not to give them any opportunity to argue the toss.

Di

Re your first point: I still have all the correspondence. What happened is I received from Mercers a Sec 87 default, along with a demand letter threatening court action etc etc. I therefore replied with a request under the CPR for, amongst other things, a copy of the original executed agreement. I got no reply from Mercers, but did get two from Barclaycard both dated the same. One was a letter enclosing a copy of t&cs; the other was a letter referencing sec 78 of the CCA and my request for a copy of the agreement, in which they state they will send it under separate cover,and also tell me I'm not entitled under CPR to be provided any docs in advance of court action. I then 1. replied rebutting their claim about not providing docs under the CPR, and 2. sent them a SAR (can't remember why, but may have been advice from another forum). They responded with another set of t&cs, old statements etc, no agreement but a promise that "any other details not available will be sent on to you". Hot on it's heels came another default notice from Mercers. That's about the last I heard from them.

Thanks for all the advice. I will send a SAR to the DMP - wouldn't have thought of that

[InvisibleMan]

Re: Invisible Man's UE diary

How much was the loan when you took it out and how long was the term if it had run its natural length (5 years at a guess)? Sometimes the Default date is relative to that depending on when you missed contractual payments and when the account was terminated etc.

Was this Northern Rock loan part of their Together Mortgage product? Probably not, but I thought I should check.

Cabot will start to get pushy because of the size of the debt, so decide whether you want to wait or whether you'd rather send your CCA Request now to see if It's flawed. You can make your decision if they pass it to Mortimer Clark solicitors or outsource it to Restons or Shoosmiths etc.

Di

Original loan was £20k over 5 years. It wasn't part of a mortgage product, just a personal loan. Not sure about when best to send the CCA request, I'll ponder that one!
Thanks again, your advice is much appreciated