JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

[jules3107]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

Good grief, that doesn't sound right at all.

Who is the mortgage lender?

From what you say you had a joint mortgage and then you had a further advance which was probably on different terms but also probably secured to the property.

If that was the case how could they have sold it (the further advance) to a debt purchaser? And why/how did the new owner get a CCJ against your husband only if it was a joint debt?

Tell me a little more detail and I'll see where you can go from here.

Plan B x

Hi Plan B,

You got it in one. What looks like have happened........(we have only ever had one advance on the mortgage and NO personal loan), someone in the Halifax system has stated we had a personal loan for the same amount on the same date? Hence my hubby now has a CCJ for 10 grand against him, yet the loan was non existent to begin with.

I am waiting on one bit of info to come from the mortgage department with the dates the mortgage advance was taken out and BANG we got them. They will NOT be able to provide a signed joint personal loans because we never signed one. All we signed was an advance for the mortgage. So basically we are currently paying for what we borrowed in the beginning and also money off a CCJ that Halifax states we have but has never existed to begin with.

Its only the past few days that everything has started falling into place. We never had a personal loan and they sold on a non existent debt which we have proof we are still paying for and this can also be proved.

Jules

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

I am waiting on one bit of info to come from the mortgage department with the dates the mortgage advance was taken out and BANG we got them. They will NOT be able to provide a signed joint personal loans because we never signed one. All we signed was an advance for the mortgage. So basically we are currently paying for what we borrowed in the beginning and also money off a CCJ that Halifax states we have but has never existed to begin with.

It reminds me of the old prayer: May God protect us from Hull, Hell and Halifax.

[jules3107]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

Afternoon All


I give up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jules3107]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

Where do I start,

I have been in deep conversation with Halifax and I have had it off 3 people now that the Halifax protocol apparently is as follows:-

Borrow Money = A signed credit agreement issued and signed........All the time the account is "LIVE" the agreement will NOT be destroyed and held of file.
Agreement is then kept until the debt is satisfied ( if more than 6 years it still has to be kept until the end of the loan)
After 6 years then and only then do they get rid of the credit agreement.
The credit agreements are shredded 6 years after the END of the agreement and NOT at it inception.
They explained the reason for doing this is that they have to be able to prove the customers borrowed the money.


If this is the case my so called personal loan agreement ended on the 28th November 2008, therefore when we applied for a SAR on the 6th December 2013, 40 days later the signed credit agreement was not enclosed???


Also 10 minutes ago whilst talking to the SAR ( a return call from a complaint ), they told me that there was no signed credit agreements for an advance on our mortgage as they do no need to have signed credit agreements
releasing the funds?


This means that ANY RANDOM with any knowledge can take funds from the bank and place them on peoples mortgages???? REALLY???


I truly give up I really do. MORONS


Jules x

[PlanB]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

How was this further advance taken out? Was it done as an online application or through an intermediary (i.e. a mortgage broker)?

It is sometimes possible to take out a further advance without signing a new "credit agreement". Your original mortgage loan document may have allowed for further advances in the Ts & Cs. You can even call up and request more money over the phone and depending on the amount requested and a 'desktop valuation' it can be agreed and sent to your account in a few days subject to sufficient equity in the property (sometimes a surveyor has to come out to revalue the property).

It seems one of two things has happened, but definitely not both unless there's been an almighty cock-up which is not impossible.

1. A further advance was granted i.e. the original loan amount was expanded possibly at a different rate and for a different length/term. This is what you believed happened and you have been paying it ever since.

Do you pay both amounts (the original monthly mortgage repayment and the subsequent further advance repayment) by one single direct debit?

If it was a further advance secured on the property, then if you had defaulted on repayment the property would be subject to repossession proceedings not a CCJ.

or

2. A personal loan was taken out which resulted in a CCJ which you say your husband has received but not you. Was only one Defendant named on the CCJ?

If it was a stand-alone personal loan that was defaulted on then it could result in a CCJ.


It's the CCJ which is the problem so that should be tackled first albeit proving you had a further advance on the same day and for the same amount as this phantom loan started would be your way of tackling it. If you can prove that then you may be in with a chance of getting that CCJ set-aside, but that argument should have been had in court to prevent the CCJ in the first place. The further advance issue would have been your defence.

So let's focus on the CCJ first. Can you post up the details. Did your husband receive the claim, did he file a defence or was this a default judgement would be a good place to start.

Can you email me a copy of the CCJ and a copy of the Claim Form to planB@all-about-debt.co.uk so we can get to the bottom of this.


Plan B x

[jules3107]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

Hi Plan B

First off background info at the time all this happened.

1. We just took out a mortgage 12 months previous.
2. I also had a 4th child
3. Mortgage was on a baby break
4 Income down to only £10333.00 as my maternity pay had run out by then.

1. A further advance was granted i.e. the original loan amount was expanded possibly at a different rate and for a different length/term. This is what you believed happened and you have been paying it ever since.

Do you pay both amounts (the original monthly mortgage repayment and the subsequent further advance repayment) by one single direct debit?

A.
No direct debit set up as the normal would be for the bank to set one up to get their money back on the same day every month.
According to the statements they have send me, they were staggered standing order payments? Also the same day the funds entered into the account an internal bank cheque was written for 8.3 grand?
We had no debt to speak of back then only our mortgage and a small car loan. Nothing else.
I have also asked Halifax to find out whom the cheques were made payable too? Guess what they don't have that information, yet they have the cheque number? The cheque was also an Internal cheque not a personal one that I have personally written. This was the information I was waiting on. As it was an IN HOUSE generated cheque, I was told via one of the many phone calls that they WOULD have this information in the archives as the personal loan account was closed only in 2008 and customer records are 6 years, yet their records they normally keep for 10 years.




The so called loan was a JOINT loan if we had it as some of the letter I do have actually have my name on them as well, yet when he got the CCJ, they just took hubbys name and left mine off?


2nd part of this is the advance on the mortgage...............The reason all this has kicked off was because we had an annual statement on the mortgage and I wanted to know what the money was in the sub account.
There is still 4.6 grand owing on that and its taken at £16 a month along side the mortgage by direct debit every month.

I was told that when they did they did the 2nd valuation on the house there was not enough collateral in the house so they turned it into an unsecured personal loan, yet we NEVER signed for it. Furthermore, Halifax DO NOT have the 2nd valuation which took place on the 22nd October 1997. Account is still very much "LIVE" so where the hell is it?

Really confusing I know.

Jules x

[PlanB]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

The so called loan was a JOINT loan if we had it as some of the letter I do have actually have my name on them as well, yet when he got the CCJ, they just took hubbys name and left mine off?

2nd part of this is the advance on the mortgage...............The reason all this has kicked off was because we had an annual statement on the mortgage and I wanted to know what the money was in the sub account.
There is still 4.6 grand owing on that and its taken at £16 a month along side the mortgage by direct debit every month.

I was told that when they did they did the 2nd valuation on the house there was not enough collateral in the house so they turned it into an unsecured personal loan, yet we NEVER signed for it. Furthermore, Halifax DO NOT have the 2nd valuation which took place on the 22nd October 1997. Account is still very much "LIVE" so where the hell is it?

Really confusing I know.

Yes it is a tad confusing

I have mortgaged, remortgaged and had further advances over 30 times with numerous different lenders over the years and thought I knew it all but this one has got me stumped.

I would really need to see some paperwork to be certain of what went on and what possibly went wrong. May I ask who handled all the dealings for this transaction, was it you or your husband? That's not a sexist question, it's to establish who was told what at the time of the deal. If it shouldn't have happened then you can apply to get it set-aside (more later).

I also need to see the county court Claim Form (with the Particulars of Claim) to establish what the Halifax believed they were owed and why. I've never known a personal loan to be spread over 20 years.

Can you answer my question about how the CCJ happened, such as a Default Judgement from not filing a Defence or did your husband fight this and lose in court? A copy of the Order would be ideal.

I'm pretty sure the valuation would have been done before any loan was established so what you say suggests there was a valuation and as a result they were not prepared to set up a further advance and offered a personal loan instead which would have a credit agreement especially since you say it was for £10k (unless this loan was for a lot more and the CCJ was for an unpaid balance). If this loan started in 1997 then it has the potential to be unenforceable if no credit agreement was signed. This would be handy if you were attempting a set-aside of the CCJ depending on the circumstances surrounding those county court proceedings.

This all took place nearly 20 years ago but appears to only have come to light recently. Is there any other possible reason for £4.6k owing on the mortgage account on top of the original mortgage advance? Could there have been arrears in the past which were being paid back at £16 per month? Arrears are often held in a separate account by lenders unless they agree to capitalize them (i.e. add them to the core loan).

[jules3107]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

Hi Plan B,

Hubby was suffering from the aftermath of a nervous major breakdown where he tried to kill himself, he did not know what he was doing, he has for years been on different meds.
In all fairness I dealt with most of the finances (hence the reason I want to know about this personal loan which really does not belong to us). One of them is DEFO OURS.

The apparent default occurred roughly 2 years after the loan was apparently taken out so 1999. We defo had one lot of money NOT TWO regardless of what it states on our statements.
Halifax NEVER set up a direct debit on the loan repayments, I do have proof of this via our statements.
After default we came to an arrangement with Halifax to pay £5 a month and this continued until they sold to debt on to Cabot on the 28th November 2008, and this is when the account was closed with Halifax.
I do actually have the letter from Halifax. Also what you have to remember is we actually thought this was the money we borrowed for home improvements as we were refused the advance.


Cabot was not given a copy of the credit agreement in 2008 when they bought the debt from Halifax. Yet account was "LIVE" prior to sale so it should have been on file (according to HALIFAX).

We got a SAR in 2013 from Cabot and they sent it in a DISC. I will get the info you need off that over the weekend.

What you have to understand, sorry to keep harping on, yet, one loan we applied for never two loans, which was the advance on the mortgage which was refused and they converted it into a personal unsecured loan. Yet we NEVER signed for it?

I have recently been told by the Halifax to go to the Ombudsman as they destroyed all the proof too early (their words not mine............personally there wasn't any proof as we didn't sign anything for ANY LOAN, and that's fact).

Then 4 weeks ago we find out via the annual mortgage statement, we have a sub account and £4.6 grand is still owing...........we were refused an advance on the mortgage and they turned it into a personal unsecured loan that we never signed for??????

Jules x

[PlanB]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

This is definitely one for the Ombudsman.

You'll need to make a formal complaint to the Halifax first which we will help you to construct.

I would keep everything in writing from now on. Maybe one letter from you asking questions such as "please explain the £4.6k you claim is owing" and so on. Then one letter setting out your complaint "we only had one loan not two".

I'm sorry your hubby has had a rough time, he's lucky to have you to help him through it.

Plan B x

[jules3107]

Re: JULES3107 UE DIARY OLD DEBTS 1997 onwards.

Evening,

I know this is going to be a long drawn out process and possibly the hardest fights we will ever have in the grand scheme of things.

Yet we need to have answers and we are not getting anywhere right now.

I have also been told via the Halifax ( not sure if this is true or not), that when they write an over the counter cheque they always keep these documents
this is also to the point they will be archived and probably on microfilm and kept indefinitely.

When I ask they then deny. Hence Brick Wall.

Night

Jules x