Night Monkey's diary

[Roger]

Indeed, especially since I've just reminded myself that PRA have already taken me to court over this and lost.

It seems that the general advice applies - everything in writing, keep all correspondence and don't engage unless you really, really have to.

Well as legally you don't own them! I suggest you send them an invoice with a 30 days to pay time limit with interest to charged at say 15% on a daily basis against your £24.08.

[Night Monkey]

I wouldn't over think this.

PRA and Barclaycard have a problem don't they!

Indeed, especially since I've just reminded myself that PRA have already taken me to court over this and lost.

It seems that the general advice applies - everything in writing, keep all correspondence and don't engage unless you really, really have to.

[Roger]

I wouldn't over think this.

PRA have now been informed by Barclaycard that default fees were wrong! Which strongly implies the Default Notice figures were wrong!
Making the Default Notice wrong!
Also the inference is that the CCA (which includes default fees!! ) was wrong! So the CCA and Default Notice are immediately in question aren't they!

Meaning the debt amount Assigned was wrong! Presumably any tax concessions for written off debt were also wrong!

"..I got momentarily excited to receive a letter from Barclaycard saying that they were providing a refund because they've 'looked at how we historically charged default fees'. £24.08, and sent direct to PRA. .."

PRA and Barclaycard have a problem don't they!
Obviously you say or do nothing!

[Warwick65]

As a brief afterthought, I'm assuming that there are no implications for the SB status of the account since I haven't taken any actions to acknowledge the 'debt', but is there even a small chance of these refunds (some that we haven't even seen) biting us in the future?

While it shouldn’t effect SB , I would keep all the letters about refunds then if, in the future they try to say you made a payment you can show it was not authorised by you.

I have heard of many cases when claimants say they received a payment, often £1 which I suspect is a cca fee. Maybe it is just bad record keeping on their part or maybe deliberate deception, who knows?

[Night Monkey]

I see that as a moral victory even if it’s not a financial one

And hopefully rubbing just a little salt in the wound

[PlanB]

excited to receive a letter from Barclaycard saying that they were providing a refund because they've 'looked at how we historically charged default fees'.

Sadly it was only for £24.08, and sent direct to PRA.

I see that as a moral victory even if it’s not a financial one

Di

[Night Monkey]

As a brief afterthought, I'm assuming that there are no implications for the SB status of the account since I haven't taken any actions to acknowledge the 'debt', but is there even a small chance of these refunds (some that we haven't even seen) biting us in the future?

[Night Monkey]

Type of account - Barclaycard credit card
Date commenced - Approx 2012
Approx balance - £7300
Date last paid - Early 2018
Are you on arrangement or not paying - DMP with StepChange (arrangement canceled March '20)
Status - default
Account owner - PRA Group (UK) Ltd.


October '20 - Court action

March '21 - It's over, I won, they can't try again.

Here's one I thought I wouldn't be updating.

I got momentarily excited to receive a letter from Barclaycard saying that they were providing a refund because they've 'looked at how we historically charged default fees'.

Sadly it was only for £24.08, and sent direct to PRA.

No calculation included to justify the amount (I've had similar from HSBC but for round numbers) and no wider clue to what's scared the banks into action - I suspect there's a scandal in the offing & they're trying to head it off at the pass.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I've updated the diary with the missing events but in short, PRA gave up, the claim has been dismissed and can't be brought against me again.

Big ups and many thanks to all at JCS, I couldn't have done it without them.

. . . Before discovering this forum I would have feared such a claim appearing and probably admitted to it just to get a resolution quickly without going to court, but armed with knowledge and support from this forum I was able to fight it successfully. Or at least employ someone else to do that on my behalf

And we couldn't have done it without you

Always happy to help.

No one should ever fear a claim because it might just be an opportunity to bring a long saga of bullying and intimidation by the debt owner (usually a debt purchaser) to an end.

In my personal experience PRA issued a claim against me and lost after a three day Trial which was unpleasant for me to say the least. However justice was done and I have closure.

I also now have the legal knowledge (and judgment) to help others in a similar situation.

Everything happens for a reason.

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di

[Night Monkey]

tldr; - PRA took me to court and gave up when challenged

[Night Monkey]

I stopped any updates regarding the Barclaycard account (see post #3)as soon as it went legal. We now have a result so I've updated the diary with the missing events but in short, PRA gave up, the claim has been dismissed and can't be brought against me again.

Big ups and many thanks to all at JCS, I couldn't have done it without them.

For anyone who wants the ins & outs of the legal shenanigans, I'll summarise it here in a more discursive form.

PRA hold two of my accounts, Barclays (£6700) and MBNA (£8250). Following CCA requests they provided what appeared to be an enforceable one for the MBNA account and nothing for Barclaycard. Despite this they chose to issue court proceedings for the Barclaycard balance in October 2020 at which point I engaged JCS to represent me.

While JCS dealt with the court and requested the documentation that the claim relied on (CCA, default notice and notice of assignment), I sent a GDPR request to PRA and they duly sent me the results. This covered both accounts and included notes that the Barclaycard CCA was unavailable and that the MBNA account should have been flagged as 'unenforceable' following the initial CCA request in 2019, due to them not being able to source the original terms and conditions.

In the meantime PRA ignored our requests for documentation so we submitted an application for the court to compel them to provide it. This application was assigned to a judge who rather than simply directing PRA to produce what they should have done already decided that it needed to go to a hearing, which was scheduled for March.

Following more silence from PRA they eventually, if you'll forgive the legal terminology, consented to the hearing being vacated and the claim against me being dismissed.

As time wound on this agreement was lodged with the court and the hearing duly cancelled.

In short, PRA gave up. This means that the alleged Barclaycard debt has gone away and cannot be brought against me again.

I've included fairly granular detail here because I thought it would be useful for other forum members to see how a case in the small claims court might play out. Before discovering this forum I would have feared such a claim appearing and probably admitted to it just to get a resolution quickly without going to court, but armed with knowledge and support from this forum I was able to fight it successfully. Or at least employ someone else to do that on my behalf :-).

It's also worth noting that PRA had provided what appeared to be a valid CCA for the MBNA account, but by their own admission can't provide the necessary terms and conditions. They still contact me regularly asking me to agree a payment plan. I'll continue to ignore them and know what to do if they get shirty.

[Night Monkey]

Thanks, Di. I've just checked the filing and unusually for me easily found copies of my CCA requests and the associated proofs of delivery so I'm as prepared as I can be.

You'll have to endure Wescot phoning, texting, sending letters...

I'm considering setting up some kind of 'Wescot Bingo' to add some entertainment as I tick off each letter that comes

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Today we received three identical letters from HSBC, two for the joint overdraft and one for the credit card, informing us that the accounts have been moved to Wescot Credit Services Ltd. who will contact us. They apparently have a range of payment plans and will work with us, etc.

I've taken a look back at your thread and can see that HSBC have not complied with your CCA Requests for both of these debts, and you sent them Recorded Delivery so have proof they received them. That was in September 2019.

It's almost the first anniversary of you ceasing payments to them via StepChange so hopefully they can now see that situation (no money from you) is not going to change anytime soon.

You'll have to endure Wescot phoning, texting, sending letters but they'll soon run out of steam and pass it back to HSBC who will eventually assign it to a debt purchaser.

This process may take some time

Di

[Night Monkey]

...they will start their little machine and churn out Ltr1 / 1/2/2/3/3/3/3 etc etc.

Always nice to have something to look forward to :-)

[The Tech Clerk]

wescot - bless them they hope to commission any payments you may make!!! they will start their little machine and churn out Ltr1 / 1/2/2/3/3/3/3 etc etc