Night Monkey's diary

[Night Monkey]

Oh, and Roger - thanks for the link to the Lowell post from Colin, I'd missed that.

[Night Monkey]

Thanks for all the comments.

I have the results of a GDPR request to HSBC from last year when Lowell came on the scene, and there is a default notice but no CCA. I'm aware that this won't include any correspondence with Overdales but I'm minded to leave things as they are for the moment, I can always revisit that should things escalate.

And I have discussed this with JCS who suggested that I did not reply to the LBA; on this occasion I chose a different path and asked for documentation, resulting in the Overdales / HSBC conversation. Hopefully that will put things to bed, but we'll see. For the moment Lowell seem to have reverted to the standard requests that I get in touch.

[Roger]

It is great that you can evidence sending of the S78 request

It is possible that sending a DSAR will bring up details of the DN as well as possibly the agreement or at least details of how you applied for it.

I hope they let it drop but if not, talking to a solicitor might be a good idea.

I strongly suggest having no further contact with Lowell nor Overdales
The thinking is on receipt of a LBC to take up offer of an initial free interview with JCS before requesting various documents
the thinking is not to encourage the DCA or their Solictors to get their ducks in a row!

IRON MOUNTAIN and HSBC also comes to mind!

This is behind a good diary and the timing of a DSAR after this response from Overdales.

But there is More its in your Diary Account owner - Lowell Portfolio I Ltd ('Lowell')

See here Colin G Quinn
https://all-about-debt.co.uk/forum/d...ca#post1549869

[Dottir]

It was indeed to HSBC.



It was blank - I was able to use a postal order returned from an earlier different request



I still have a copy of the request and a proof of delivery (signed for by ‘Wayne’, apparently). It’s just that their only response was to return it without comment.



I didn’t - it was a response to an LBA so I didn’t think it necessary.



I recall arranging for the card over the phone because I remember the part of the conversation where I was told I qualified for a gold one; I presume that I was subsequently sent the paperwork to sign but can’t be sure - sadly my records are not to that standard :-)



That’s what I’m hoping for.

And finally, the above few interactions are exactly why I joined and stayed a member of this site, hopefully we’re on a return to the good old days.

It is great that you can evidence sending of the S78 request

It is possible that sending a DSAR will bring up details of the DN as well as possibly the agreement or at least details of how you applied for it.

I hope they let it drop but if not, talking to a solicitor might be a good idea.

[Dottir]

Those older CCA contracts have all sorts of issues especially over terms.
But you can either sit and wait OR send HSBC a DSAR because this covers the Overdales period doesn't it!
Find out what HSBC have or have not got on record is always wise at this stage.
Remember letter was sent recorded delivery and the request plus postal order was sent back the presumption is from the person address to!
Don't over think this!
Its the Claimant that has to prove their Case.

I would send a DSAR to HSBC (recorded delivery no need for £1)

If I have read the diary correctly, Overdales only became involved once it was sold to Lowell

I do think that a DSAR to HSBC might be useful

Indeed the claimant has to prove their case on the balance of probabilities

[Roger]

Those older CCA contracts have all sorts of issues especially over terms.
But you can either sit and wait OR send HSBC a DSAR because this covers the Overdales period doesn't it!
Find out what HSBC have or have not got on record is always wise at this stage.
Remember letter was sent recorded delivery and the request plus postal order was sent back the presumption is from the person address to!
Don't over think this!
Its the Claimant that has to prove their Case.

I would send a DSAR to HSBC (recorded delivery no need for £1)

[Night Monkey]

When you sent the CCA request , was it to HSBC?

It was indeed to HSBC.

Was the postal order blank or made payable to someone?

It was blank - I was able to use a postal order returned from an earlier different request

The problem is joining the dots to build your case that you sent a lawful S78 request and they ignored it.

I still have a copy of the request and a proof of delivery (signed for by ‘Wayne’, apparently). It’s just that their only response was to return it without comment.

When you asked for the usual documents from Overdales, did you sent the postal order- it is not clear, so do not want to jump to assumptions.

I didn’t - it was a response to an LBA so I didn’t think it necessary.

Depending on what the answers are to the above might influence the next course of action BUT it does seem as if they do not have the original agreement and as it is 2002 it will have to have been signed (as opposed to digitally signed).

Can you remember 22 years ago? If you can why? Did you sign anything? It might be that you are a detailed record keeper and have the application form somewhere but no agreement- I have no idea.

I recall arranging for the card over the phone because I remember the part of the conversation where I was told I qualified for a gold one; I presume that I was subsequently sent the paperwork to sign but can’t be sure - sadly my records are not to that standard :-)

Lets hope Lowell decide that they are onto a loser

That’s what I’m hoping for.

And finally, the above few interactions are exactly why I joined and stayed a member of this site, hopefully we’re on a return to the good old days.

[Night Monkey]

Did anybody suggest sending the Sold Whilst in Dispute AAD stock letter?

That hasn't been suggested yet, and I've been minded to let things lie. Would there be any benefit in sending one? I'm a little reluctant to rattle any cages atm.

[Dottir]

It is somewhat hard to unpick the detail and of course the devil is in the detail.

Can I ask

When you sent the CCA request , was it to HSBC?

Was the postal order blank or made payable to someone?

The problem is joining the dots to build your case that you sent a lawful S78 request and they ignored it.

Moving on to more recent activity....

When you asked for the usual documents from Overdales, did you sent the postal order- it is not clear, so do not want to jump to assumptions.

Depending on what the answers are to the above might influence the next course of action BUT it does seem as if they do not have the original agreement and as it is 2002 it will have to have been signed (as opposed to digitally signed).

Can you remember 22 years ago? If you can why? Did you sign anything? It might be that you are a detailed record keeper and have the application form somewhere but no agreement- I have no idea.

Lets hope Lowell decide that they are onto a loser

[Roger]

HSBC
Date commenced - Approx 2005 (actually 2002)

29.9.19 Finally sent CCA request, using one of the returned postal orders :-)
11.10.19 Received a hand-addressed letter today, presumably from HSBC, containing my letter requesting a CCA and the postal order. No covering letter, no compliments slip, nothing else at all. Seemed a bit rude, tbh. I'm thinking 'I've asked, you haven't supplied the necessaries, no further action from me required'. Does anyone disagree? Oh, and I'm glad I used recorded delivery :-)

so sold whilst in dispute! IE the outstanding CCA Request

Well Overdales solicitors
"..
In March I received the results of that request, a package purportedly containing the terms and conditions, a statement of account and a default notice. It also stated that 'unfortunately we have been unable to obtain a copy of the credit agreement' and that the matter has been referred back to their client.
.."
April Lowell, headed 'Responding to your query'.

Did anybody suggest sending the Sold Whilst in Dispute AAD stock letter?

Requesting from Overdales wouldn't have included £1 because LBA
BUT it is very IMPORTANT because its UE whilst your 29th Sept 2019 CCA s.78 plus £1 is outstanding!

[Sparkles]

They really do stretch their wording to within a millimetre of lying don't they.

[Night Monkey]

Since I'm housekeeping this diary at the moment it seemed pertinent to give a brief update on the threatened legal action from Lowell regarding the (originally) HSBC credit card with a balance of around £5.5k.

To save everyone paging back through my posts I received in January something from Overdales solicitors which may or may not have been a Letter Before Action; it certainly looked like it might be but the consensus here was that it didn't quite meet the criteria and that Lowell were perhaps pushing the bounds without actually initiating the legal process. However, an actual LBA was subsequently received and the usual discussion of whether or not to respond ensued - previously with PRA I didn't and had to go through court action (I won), this time I chose to reply. I didn't fill in the supplied form but requested the usual collection of documents. They responded with a letter attached to what they claimed to be an assignment (I'm not convinced that it was) and a couple of paragraphs of legalese - 'there is no legal requirement for assignment to...', 'our client will not...', etc. - and ultimately confirming that they had raised a query with Lowell.

In March I received the results of that request, a package purportedly containing the terms and conditions, a statement of account and a default notice. It also stated that 'unfortunately we have been unable to obtain a copy of the credit agreement' and that the matter has been referred back to their client.

I took that to be game over for the moment but in April received another package from Lowell, headed 'Responding to your query'. They give some pertinent dates regarding the account and claim that it includes the default notice, terms and conditions, credit agreement and statements. They apparently consider the balance to be valid and owing and have placed the account on hold for 30 days to give me time to review the letter. The only contact since then has been a text message asking me to get in touch.

I have been through the Lowell package and as far as I can tell it is identical to the one from Overdales. Both contain something titled 'credit card agreement terms', but without any details referring to me. The only obvious difference between them is that Lowell are willing to claim that it contains a credit agreement. My working theory is that Overdales (being solicitors) are held to a higher professional standard than debt purchasers, and of course if the debt is 'valid and owing' (Lowell's opinion) that does not make it enforceable.

So that's where we are now, I'll post updates as and when anything happens.

[Night Monkey]

PRA have flagged the BarclayCard account which was the subject of a failed legal action as closed on the CRAs, which I guess means they've accepted the loss on that one. They have another one (originally an MBNA credit card, ~£7.5k) that they have admitted is currently UE so I'll watch that with interest.

[Night Monkey]

...it would never have occurred to me that debts could be unenforceable.

I was in the same position until I found AAD. Potentially ten-plus years of stress and repayments to companies I'd never heard of that had never lent me a penny.

[Night Monkey]

Surely if they have either failed in court or admitted it is UE they should keep quiet.

As I understand it, if they've failed in court then it's game over, they don't get a second chance.

As far as UE is concerned, they (apparently) have to tell you but it doesn't mean the debt's gone away and they can keep asking for payment, and there's always the chance that whatever the problem is can be rectified at which point enforcement can commence.