My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Hi SaltnVinegar,
Brilliant news that at long last those dear Spaniards have seen sense.

I doubt that, I just think my final letter scored on the letter opening roulette at Santander!

I am a great believer in self-managed Debt Management Plans when you have the support around to help get them up and running

Ditto you may have seen my evil twin Crispybacon postings on LB

Although I mod this section I've kept very quiet so far as nobody has posted in it.

I'll try to change that

Needless to say, any difficulties you have, or if you think I may be able to help, just post up.

Thanks I will!

SnV

[The Debt Star]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

After threatening to set their doorstep collectors arm on me (Power 2 Contact) and claiming that only a court could enforce refusing to allow them onto my property (their response to receiving the normal doorstep collection letter) I threw a CCA request at them.

Hi Crispy. Good thread dude.

My question re above, is what steps would you have taken if you already had your CCA for that debt? ie you couldn't play the CCA card. How would you have dealt with these aggressos then?

[5corpio]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

At least they are moving their call centre back to the UK - may be able to understand us, rather than ficiton character names, like what they do in India call centres!

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Hi Crispy. Good thread dude.

My question re above, is what steps would you have taken if you already had your CCA for that debt? ie you couldn't play the CCA card. How would you have dealt with these aggressos then?

Hi DS

Depends on whether the cca was enforceable or not or whether I was trying to come an arrangement to pay.

I've had this situation on several occasions where I've made a payment proposal which has been ignored and I've continued to receive doorstep threats. See below the relevant paragraph from the letters I've sent (only slight change here is I have replaced an old court case against Lowell who were sued for damages for harrassment with the recent Harrison v Link financial).

I've sent this letter out on several occasions and each time the account has been passed on to a different DCA

Best

SnV

START

Let me make my position on doorstep visits clear:


1) As a ‘customer’ of yours I do not wish to receive or accept your doorstep collection service, nor do I wish to arrange an appointment with one of your representatives.

2) I will discuss this matter in writing ONLY. I will not discuss anything with a field based agent and should any of your representatives visit my property they will be asked to leave and the police will be called immediately.


It is also a breach of OFT guidelines to threaten to visit debtors without prior agreement when an account is in dispute or deadlocked.

For the avoidance of doubt and clarification I refer you to the OFT's definition of a deadlocked account in their debt collection guidelines:

"By 'deadlocked' we mean where a debtor (or debtor’s adviser) agrees there is a debt and has offered a repayment programme which has not been agreed by the creditor or debt collector. We are not saying that any offer must be accepted but we have seen cases where offers are disregarded and a debtor is told that 'we are sending field agents'. Many debtors are unlikely to understand this term and are likely to view the visit as a threat designed to make them offer more money when they can pay no more. Some letters appear to be designed to give this impression."

I therefore consider your enclosed letter to be a direct breach of the guidance given by the OFT and any further breaches on your part will be reported to the appropriate regulatory bodies, including but not limited to the OFT, Trading Standards and the FOS.

I also now formally advise you that any such visits will be followed up to the full extent of the law; a Police complaint for any trespass, which, if it occurs, will result in my seeking an Injunctive Relief Order from the courts. This means any visits would be classed as a criminal offence (contempt of court) and would be subject to fines and/or custodial sentencing.

Be advised that I will consider any further correspondence threatening doorstep visits, or an actual visit from one of your field representatives as harrassment and will consider you in breach of the Protection from Harrassment Act 1997 and will start legal proceedings accordingly.

I specifically draw your attention to the relevant parts of the Act namely:

1 Prohibition of harassment

(1) A person must not pursue a course of conduct—

(a) which amounts to harassment of another, and

(b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.

(2) For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other.

In relation to the section (2) identified above I refer you to the recent court case of Harrison v Link Financial [2011] EWHC B3

Although you may claim as per Section 1.3.c of this act "that in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct was reasonable" the OFT guidelines quoted above demonstrate that the OFT would consider threatening to visit debtor when an account is in deadlock an unfair business practice, consequently your pursuit of the course of action could not possibly be considered reasonable.

I trust that clarifies my position and that you will desist in making further such threats.

Regards

END

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Can I use this in our templates - as a new deadlock letter please mate?

It can help many many people. Very good, I am impressed

Niddy

[The Debt Star]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Good 'un Crisp.

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Can I use this in our templates - as a new deadlock letter please mate?

It can help many many people. Very good, I am impressed

Niddy

Pleased you like it!

Yeah feel free to add it into a template somewhere, it certainly seems to send DCA's behinds into spasms when they receive it!

Only thing people need to be aware of is that you need to have actually made a payment proposal to the creditor/DCA, and have it ignored or rejected, before you send it, otherwise the whole OFT/harrassment angle doesn't work.

It'll have more weight when the OFT664 consultation period ends and the new guidelines come into play as the CFS is given more acknowledgement so when this happens I'll be tweaking the above to also include creditors disregard for a CFS.

Best

SnV

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Good 'un Crisp.

Thanks DS.

Feel free to use it to give any DCA's a good

[caspar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Couldn't agree more - a really good letter - thanks SnV!

[The Debt Star]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

Only thing people need to be aware of is that you need to have actually made a payment proposal to the creditor/DCA, and have it ignored or rejected, before you send it, otherwise the whole OFT/harrassment angle doesn't work.

yes and require proof of it - sent by recorded post

[Wishfull]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

snv i have 4 accounts with santander they are really bad at putting blocks on everyway forward you try to make three have been shipped to dca who agreed dmp without any effort in fact westcote seemed to easy to be true,i have one account were they havent and im trying to get them to accept my plan wich one week they accept the next week they dont i have asked them to give me details to set up a standing order wich is not pos apparently you had the same,i have stopped paying this month so it will be passed to westcote i have complained to fos who have sent me a form but said i have to give santander 8 weeks to sort it have you a copy of your letter as it sounds like they treated you the same thanks wishfullthinking

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

snv i have 4 accounts with santander they are really bad at putting blocks on everyway forward you try to make three have been shipped to dca who agreed dmp without any effort in fact westcote seemed to easy to be true,i have one account were they havent and im trying to get them to accept my plan wich one week they accept the next week they dont i have asked them to give me details to set up a standing order wich is not pos apparently you had the same,i have stopped paying this month so it will be passed to westcote i have complained to fos who have sent me a form but said i have to give santander 8 weeks to sort it have you a copy of your letter as it sounds like they treated you the same thanks wishfullthinking

Hi Wishful

I think this is just Santanders standard behaviour.

The are talking ballhooks when they say they can't set up a SO. I have a SO mandate from them so they can do it, they just prefer not to!

Remember it took me 10 months to get to this point, grinding them down. This is what they try to do to you so don't let them.

Best
SnV

[caspar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

A very valid point there SnV. You have to keep on and on and on being a thorn in their side if you are to stand any chance of achieving the result you want.

It's similar to the councils who swear blind they can't recall accounts which have been passed out for enforcement.

All these big institutions seem to be liars. When they say we can't, I'd take it to mean we'd rather not.....

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

You have to keep on and on and on being a thorn in their side if you are to stand any chance of achieving the result you want.

A thorn? No something more like a wooden stake is what you have to be to get them to sit up and take notice.

One of the best pieces of advice I was given was to always remember you are just a number on a balance sheet.

The minute you start to upset the balance, or start to cost them money you will get their attention.

Santander (as well as Shop Direct) deliberately ran up the balances of my accounts for many months in the full knowledge I was in financial difficulty. This made the 'loss' on their balance sheets more palatable when it came to writing off the debt (internally) and getting tax relief on it, not to mention bumping up the sale price when flogging it to DCA's.

Once my DMP became financially viable for them then the offer was accepted.

I expect that come next April, my accounts will do the DCA merry go round where they sell each others liabilities to each other to create some 'churn' and I'll be going through the whole thing again for a short while.

Best

SnV

[caspar]

Re: My Debt Experience - Learn from my pain

That's exactly what a certain creidit card company did with me. They've run it up from £4500 to just over £19000 now. I stopped communicating when they started being stupid about 5 years ago, so hopefully one more year and they really will have lost money!