New tenancy problem

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

I agree PlanB, there are some unfair deductions but I don't think there's any right of appeal is there?

It's highly unlikely that I'll get the money back from him but we shall see.

He's now in a house with a good landlord and is much happier.

He was a lot more switched on when the check in was done and the guy that did it was very thorough.

Thank you for all you help and advice along the way, it was very much appreciated.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

When a dispute is submitted to the deposit schemes, does this go against the LL as a 'black mark'?

Sorry to disappoint but there are no black marks awarded against a Landlord for having a deposit disputed because some of the time the disputes raised by Tenants are malicious, vindictive, vengeful or just 'trying it on' (not that I'm biased you'll understand ). Tenancy deposit disputes tend to be more emotional than financial in my experience.

However they are recorded against the Landlord's file and if mydeposits see a pattern forming (every deposit withheld gets disputed by the Tenant and upheld) then I'm sure it will flag up each time a new dispute comes along.

Mydeposits uses external adjudicators and the Decisions are made public using anonymity such as Miss X or Mr Y similar to the FOS Decisions. I usually refer Tenants to those before they raise a dispute because it's a good way to manage their expectations.

You can view case studies here > http://www.idrs.ltd.uk/?p=9&lang=e

[IF]

Re: New tenancy problem

Well done marypoppins and planB

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

The tenants are happy with the result and as they were expecting to pay a check out fee which wasn't awarded, their loss is about £25 all in all.

That's a great result

Although I do think it was outrageous to charge the tenants 25% of the kitchen worktop since the Adjudicator admitted there was no evidence that they had breached the terms of their tenancy agreement. I do hate the way adjudicators and/or mediators feel that everyone has to think they've 'won' so they award things which aren't supported by the legal contract (aka the AST).

Good news that the Landlord's lie about the net curtain was thrown out.

Tenants should never have to pay for the Check-Out Inventory unless it's explicitly stated in the tenancy agreement, so that decision to deny the cost was a victory for common sense.

The repair to the extractor fan is annoying. How can a tenant possibly break an extractor fan? They seldom break, but when they do it's usually from 'old age' when a mechanical part dies. Paying for the bulb is reasonable but I think it wasn't fair to charge for that repair (depending on what was wrong with it). I mean everything has a lifespan so that could have been wear 'n' tear.

Now the biggest task ahead is for you to extract the money from your son since you paid for the deposit in the first place. Good Luck with that

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

LL claim £644.96

Adjudicators decision LL - £189.74

Tenants - £455.22

LL was awarded 25% of the cleaning claim (my deposits wouldn't accept the photo's submitted by the tenants as evidence because they weren't dated) however they based it on the check in inventory from Aug 13 and the check out inventory which the LL produced, but was dated 14 days after vacating the property. This apparently showed light cleaning required but after 14 days that was to be expected.

LL awarded £8.00 for the doorbell.

LL denied £35 for a net curtain track because no evidence was provided to confirm that it was missing at the end of the tenancy.

LL awarded £85 for replacement oven extractor bulb and repair to extractor fan. (these were not tested on occupation but just noted in the check in inventory so I think a 50/50 split may have been fairer but you live and learn)

LL awarded 25% for the replacement of the kitchen worktop. They agreed that a loss may have been incurred but the 'invoices' produced are 'persuasive' as evidence of payments made and they did not indicate that this expenditure was incurred as a direct result of a breach of the AST by the tenant.

LL denied the claim for the check out fee of £130 because no evidence could be produced to confirm that this was agreed. It isn't mentioned in the AST and no signed T & C's could be provided.

The tenants are happy with the result and as they were expecting to pay a check out fee which wasn't awarded, their loss is about £25 all in all.

I hope the LL treats the new tenants better but I somehow think not!

When a dispute is submitted to the deposit schemes, does this go against the LL as a 'black mark'?

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

I'm almost too nervous to ask for an update on this

It's in the hands of My Deposits!

I will update in due course.

[cymruambyth]

Re: New tenancy problem

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

I'm almost too nervous to ask for an update on this

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

For what it's worth I think this Landlady is pushing her luck. Mydeposits will have seen it all before. Landlords try to use spurious reasons for upgrading their properties at the unjustifiable expense of outgoing tenants.

Not me of course

I hope MD see it for what it is and it come to a fair conclusion.

Having gone through all the paperwork to prepare a draft letter for them, you pick up on things that make you wonder, like the fact that the bill for the fan wasn't dated until 19th Aug, 20 days after they vacated, they could argue that it was working on vacating as she didn't check it so how can she prove anything?

There's a bill from the builders for work they did in the kitchen for the worktop but also for moving gas pipes and other things which all would have been behind the cooker so they may have had to remove the work top in order to complete the job.

The total bill is for £700, £375 of which is 2.5 days labour and she is trying to charge them £200 (£150 which is labour), the cost of the work top was only £30 (she got is discounted due to damage) then £21 for sealant and hoses. Where the hell are hoses required?

I'm off to Spain for a couple of weeks now, thankyou PlanB for your help through this, I hope I will have something positive to report on my return!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

It will then be submitted if a satisfactory agreement can't be reached.

For what it's worth I think this Landlady is pushing her luck. Mydeposits will have seen it all before. Landlords try to use spurious reasons for upgrading their properties at the unjustifiable expense of outgoing tenants.

Not me of course

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

See my previous post. They need to respond to the Landlord direct before filing a dispute. The Landlord must be given the opportunity to put things right first. I know you're itching to dispute this but the Tenants will look unreasonable if they don't tell her why they disagree with her deductions before charging headlong into a formal dispute.

Agreed!

A letter has been prepared going through the all bullet points individually and stating what and why they consider unreasonable amounts. They will send it recorded post and by email and it gives 7 days to respond, provide receipts that weren't sent and also for a complete and fully legible copy of the inventory she has sent to them.

It will then be submitted if a satisfactory agreement can't be reached.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Lead tenant has discussed it with MD and they have told them to submit the dispute, it has been prepared between all of them and just needs a few tweaks and documents to be uploaded before its sent.

LL is impossible to speak to (I'm really not joking) all she does is shout and talks over you! She won't respond by email or send a read receipt and then disputes that she's received anything so I guess an email followed up by a letter sent RD to her will suffice.

She had produced a very poor copy of an inventory which is dated 14th Aug (house vacated 31st Jul) and there is no indication who completed it, the inventory fee is mentioned on the agents T & C's and states they are responsible for the fee but no amount is quoted. She says she has a document signed by them all agreeing to the fee so they have asked for a copy, but she hasn't sent it and says it was all agreed with the letting agency who do not appear to have a copy either. The fee isn't in dispute, just the amount and proof that they signed agreeing to it. Its not mentioned on the AST.

Something I did notice was the quote (not a receipt) that she has given them for cleaning the oven/hob is dated on the day they vacated, now bearing in mind the checkout was done late in the afternoon it's strange that she has managed to get a company out, inspect the oven and produce a quote so quickly! They do have good photo's of the hob and interior of this on the day they vacated and it is clean. She also says that the washer interior hadn't been cleaned but again, the photo's clearly show otherwise.

I take your point about the work surface, you can see on the photo's that the sealant had lifted in parts between the tiled wall and the worktop, if the water was wiped away, they would not have had any idea that it was penetrating the board unless there was any sign of water in the cupboard underneath the pics show that it looks ok on top so this will be down to MD decision.

Unfortunately they just don't trust her!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Should the tenants let the LL know that they will be filing a dispute?

See my previous post. They need to respond to the Landlord direct before filing a dispute. The Landlord must be given the opportunity to put things right first. I know you're itching to dispute this but the Tenants will look unreasonable if they don't tell her why they disagree with her deductions before charging headlong into a formal dispute.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Should the tenants let the LL know that they will be filing a dispute?

The Tenants have to dispute it with the Landlord first before they file a dispute with the deposit scheme, and give her a limited time to respond to that dispute. There's a protocol to handling this. Maybe the Lead Tenant (because they're the only person who can do this at the moment) should ring mydeposits and ask their advice on the procedure. Just like a court claim there must be efforts made on both sides to negotiate first. You can't just throw it at the deposit scheme and say "sort this out". Judging by your last post I may be saying this too late.

Everything deducted from the deposit will need to be backed up by receipts and evidence from the Landlord. Everything disputed by the Tenants will need to be backed up by their own evidence.

There are only two things which really matter when deciding the outcome. Firstly the tenancy agreement which spells out what can and can't be charged in a legal contract (e.g. who pays for the check-out etc); and secondly the two inventories for forensic comparison. It's a case of the Check-In vs the Check-Out. It doesn't matter what either the Landlord or the Tenant say, it's what is written down, documented and photographed in those two inventories which will be the Arbitrator's starting point. After that there will be a decision made on what is fair wear and tear, what is damage and what is taking the piss.

I can only reiterate that only the Lead Tenant can do this unless they decide that they do not wish to dispute anything then any of the other Tenants can dispute their own portion. However this may weaken the case of the Tenant who does wish to dispute it because the Arbitrator will wonder why the others agree that they caused damage and not the one challenging the decision.

The only thing on your list which strikes me as blatantly unfair is the replacement of the kitchen work surface. I had a similar issue with a Tenant recently. The wood work surface suffered black watermarks, burns and knife cuts. The Tenant argued that the tap was leaking which caused the stains. I argued that if they'd told me the tap was leaking I would have got the washer changed. They couldn't argue about the burns and knife cuts since that was their fault. The resolution was to have the wood work surface sanded down which they paid for. Replacing it would have been a bloody cheek.

If the extractor fan was damaged as a result of a tennis ball then that would be their fault unless they can prove there was a tennis ball in there at the outset. The Landlady would need proof that a tennis ball broke it. Presumably that would have been noted by the contractor who fixed or replaced the extractor fan.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Should the tenants let the LL know that they will be filing a dispute?