New tenancy problem

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Would you agree that it is reasonable for the house to be inspected with all the tenants in attendance, room by room with any considered problems being noted in writing and a copy of the notes being given to them signed and agreed (or not) by them all prior to handing back the keys? Of course many photo's need to be taken at this point too.

There is no need for the Tenants to be at the inspection because the Inventory Clerk will simply note what he sees. He will ignore any remarks made by the Tenants because he'll have heard it all before. The Inventory Clerk cannot be influenced. He's only there to make an accurate record of the condition with photos.

Then that Check-Out Inventory is usually sent to the tenants in the post/email giving them seven days to agree and sign, or disagree and comment in writing to the agent or Landlord. It's not an argument to be had with the Inventory Clerk. He is impartial, objective, non-involved and 'deaf' to anything anyone says.

If there's a dispute it will go to whichever scheme is holding the deposit for arbitration.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Thank you for the NLA link PlanB, I'll have a more serious look once they have moved out and the deposit has been returned.

No vacating time is mentioned in the agreement and my comments were a bit 'tongue in cheek', of course it wouldn't be satisfactory for anyone to do a checkout at midnight, I just wondered what your opinion would be.

I do take your point about the agent giving a reference, however he does know the landlady and the problems she has caused throughout the tenancy and at the end of the day, he would have known if there had been a problem with rent not being paid because he would have had to find some new tenants for her.

I think withholding a reference is unacceptable when the rent has been paid on the dot for the duration of the tenancy, it implies that there has been problems with the tenants which is very unfair when the friction that has been caused has mostly been down to them living in a building site for several weeks throughout the 12 months they have been there and simply getting fed up with it.

It's a pity that tenants moving out don't have a facility to give any prospective tenants a reference too, it can work both ways and would probably give some of the landlords a boot up the back side that they need.

As it stands at the moment, they plan to move their furniture and belongings out asap on Wednesday so that the professional clean can be done more easily.

No arrangements have yet been made for the check out to be done and there isn't anything in the tenancy agreement referring to how this is arranged, just what is expected as a far as cleaning etc.

I recall PlanB that you mentioned that it would make sense for the check out inventory to be completed by the same company that did the check in. My son has put a call in to the company to see if they will be doing the check out.

Would you agree that it is reasonable for the house to be inspected with all the tenants in attendance, room by room with any considered problems being noted in writing and a copy of the notes being given to them signed and agreed (or not) by them all prior to handing back the keys? Of course many photo's need to be taken at this point too.

As far as the verbal abuse is concerned, yes it is hearsay but the fact that several people have been subject to this treatment indicates that this isn't an isolated incident.

Roll on Friday!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

25th July:

Originally Posted by marypoppins
Is there a landlords association or something where a landlord can be reported for abuse and unreasonable behaviour?

The risk assessment company for the new house they are moving into and the new agents have tried to speak to her and she has been very abusive and refused to give a reference. The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having record of rent history.


27th July:

The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having no record of rent history.

I can see you edited your post yesterday (after I had posted on your thread) to say that the agent gave a reference on behalf of the tenants despite having no record of rent history. This is shameful behaviour by that agent and they should be reported to The Property Ombudsman for lying in a reference (if they are members of the scheme). The agent is the one abusing the system not the Landlord.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Is there a landlords association or something where a landlord can be reported for abuse and unreasonable behaviour?

The risk assessment company for the new house they are moving into and the new agents have tried to speak to her and she has been very abusive and refused to give a reference. The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having record of rent history.

If their Landlord is a member of the National Landlords Association then they can make a complaint about her:

http://www.landlords.org.uk/accredit...laints-process

Do you have any proof she's been abusive or is that hearsay?

A Landlord is not legally obliged to give a reference. I have refused to give references when I feel it's better to say nothing than give a bad reference. That way the next Landlord taking on my ex-tenant will be able to read between the lines.

Most external referencing agencies only ask three questions along the lines of: (1) has the rent been paid on time (2) has the property been looked after, and (3) would you let a property to this Tenant again. It's possible to leave question No 3 blank or speak frankly. I find a simple "No" when it's justified is fair to warn the next Landlord that they may be in for a rough ride.

Maybe under the circumstances and due to the ongoing friction between the Landlord and Tenants she did them a favour by refusing to give a reference because that's better than saying what she really thought of them

I genuinely hope the next Landlord shows your son and his mates a little more respect because they've not enjoyed their stay in this property. All the grief could have easily been avoided if the communication between them had been better.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Tenancy agreements normally run from midday. If your son's AST doesn't stipulate a time then I guess that would mean midnight but no later.

I'm surprised it doesn't state a time because vacating the property would require an inventory check and/or a schedule of condition to be drawn up and inventory clerks don't work in the middle of the night.

Once the check has been done the tenants must vacate immediately and they would be obliged to hand over their keys to the inventory clerk or the agent which can't be done in the middle of the night either (unless they've agreed to drop them through the agent's letterbox).

You need to speak to the agent about this because it's not uncommon to have a new Tenant move in within hours of the old Tenants leaving unless the Landlord plans to have work done. You said that she already has new Tenants lined up.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

We are now coming up to the finishing line thank goodness!

If the AST ends on 31st July and doesn't stipulate any time to vacate, is it reasonable to stay until midnight or just before? The only reason I ask is because they didn't get the date of their tenancy for the new house amended to 31st July and doesn't start until 1st August!

Is there a landlords association or something where a landlord can be reported for abuse and unreasonable behaviour?

The risk assessment company for the new house they are moving into and the new agents have tried to speak to her and she has been very abusive and refused to give a reference. The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having no record of rent history.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

LL turned up but a little early, so my son hadn't left the house!

My wonderful son called me to say she'd been and he'd punched her on the nose!! However he was joking, he's hasn't got an ounce of violence in him but it did stretch my sense of humour somewhat!

He was glad in the end and she was as nice as pie...........................how could this be?

She'd brought along three of the new tenants with her, that's why unannounced and obviously wanted to give them a good impression and she through the house telling them about all the plans she had for re-decorating etc. I don't think there was any mention of the scaffolding that has been up around the house since October, perhaps she sees that as a positive in order for them to believe that a lot of maintenance work is going on.

She had no intention of doing an pre-inspection which is what she had told them she was coming to do.

Methinks the purpose of the 'inspection' was simply to hope that the house would be tip top............... very crafty!

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

At the speed the years go by, the boot will be on the other foot soon enough and then they will have the dilemma of sorting us out!

Let's hope they will be earning enough to keep us in the luxury we will expect!

Hope your daughter gets back on her feet soon.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

my son is not planning to come back home but is now earning very good money and the bank of Mum & Dad is starting to look a little healthier!

Dream on

My daughter is/was earning good money until she had an incident/accident in a club in Ibiza (hence the wheelchair) so I'm now having to cover her living (and car, mobile phone etc etc) expenses. In my case it's the Bank of Mum since the Bank of Dad legged it many years ago.

Right now I'm having a real dilemma as to when do we parents say "sort yourself out because I'm done with this".

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

OMG PlanB that's some horror story!

I do like your style with your daughter though.

I'll bear that link in mind for future reference, it's very sad that we have human beings on our planet that have not one iota of respect for others!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

I know I'm getting involved again but it's a huge deposit (over 2k), a quarter of which is mine!

I'm in the same situation as you. I paid for my daughter's deposit which I know I'll never get back. I'll be interested to see how her Landlord reacts to the tyre marks on the floor from her wheelchair (only a temporary problem from a broken limb thankfully) but I shan't hesitate to play the disability card if they try to claim for repairs/cleaning for that one! We've already taken a photo of her sitting in the wheelchair looking all forlorn. I'm not stupid.

Written references must be *honest and accurate* but then there's always the phone call to the letting agent to say "don't touch them with a bargepole". I've only done it once and it was out of respect for fellow Landlords who can be duped by agents into thinking just because the Tenant paid the rent on time that doesn't mean they weren't the Tenants from Hell.

Maybe their Landlord should read this story and consider herself lucky. I was in a similar situation with a Tenant who trashed a flat (he actually peed up and down the walls and left 36 mice in residence) and I never recovered a penny of the £5k damage because he was on benefits. So even though I took him to court I had to pull out when it became clear he hadn't got the money to pay any CCJ. I'm currently paying off his £11k legal costs. But I'm not bitter (yeah right) :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...pay-penny.html

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Once again, thank you PlanB for your very helpful comments and links.

Getting cleaning quotes for carpets never occurred to me but is an extremely good idea. They do plan to get cleaners in before they vacate despite the questionable cleanliness when they moved in but the inventory does reflect this and they should have taken up any concerns at that time.

I take your point about a reference and would hope, if one is necessary to be honest and accurate, yes there was certainly a clash of personalities but that's life! However rent was paid on time as per the tenancy agreement and in fairness, they have had to put up with a lot of maintenance throughout the tenancy including damage to personal property and 'quiet enjoyment' has been erratic to say the least! So I don't see how it could be anything but good and his previous landlords can also confirm that there weren't any problems with his previous tenancies.

As far as the impending visit goes, the girls (two) simply don't want to be there because of previous experiences with the LL, the third guy is working so I am trying hard to persuade my son to be there but keep this mouth zipped!

I think it is really important for someone to be there in order to see what she has to say and so that they are well prepared in advance for any dispute.

I know I'm getting involved again but it's a huge deposit (over 2k), a quarter of which is mine!

Although my son is not planning to come back home but is now earning very good money and the bank of Mum & Dad is starting to look a little healthier!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

The Tenants need to look at the terms of the AST which may say that carpets should be cleaned at the end of the tenancy (they often say that). In which case there's no escape from that payment or deduction from the deposit if the job is arranged by the Landlord after they leave the property.

They could try to haggle to get a reduction though but it'll be hard to prove whether the carpet cleaning contractor's price increased because of the mess made by the builders. It may make sense to get a couple of low estimates of their own now in case they're faced with an excessive charge.

I once had a claim for carpet cleaning accepted by the deposit arbitration scheme because my Tenants had kept a dog which crapped on the carpet, so even though there wasn't a term in the AST which said I could charge them the scheme got them to pay up.

Here are some case studies from one of the schemes where you'll see carpet cleaning is often an issue which will give you an idea on what is expected of both Landlord and Tenant (it has case studies of other regular disputed items too):

http://www.mydeposits.co.uk/landlords/casestudies

There are more case studies here from the TDS. You'll see that the schemes are largely Tenant-biased so your guys should be ok:

https://www.tds.gb.com/case-studies.html

Everything hinges on the Inventory Check-In and the Check-Out report and the terms of the tenancy agreement. It's the Landlord's right to select the Inventory service and it makes sense to use the same one as at the start of the tenancy.

Once final thing to bear in mind is that the Tenants will need a Landlord's reference for their next let (unless they're moving back home) so keeping things amicable is a good idea.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

The Landlord does not have the right to enter the property without notice. The AST will probably say he has to give 24 or 48 hours notice. If there's an emergency then the Landlord doesn't have to give any notice. Inspecting the property towards the end of a tenancy isn't an emergency, but if the Landlord has given a reasonable amount of notice then the Tenants can't refuse. If they are concerned about the visit then they should be there. Maybe they should try and negotiate a date/time which is mutually convenient since they've got seven weeks left to agree something.

They don't have a problem with the LL visiting and will try to arrange a mutual convenient time when they can all be there, they are all working so daytime can be an issue. However, the LL has made arrangements to visit several times in the past and simply does not turn up, they also believe that she has been into the house when they've not been there.

The Landlord is right to inspect the property prior to the end of the tenancy to anticipate what problems may lie ahead. I expect there will be loads of issues since this has been an unhappy Landlord/Tenant relationship. If both sides can identify the potential disputes now, then they could try to settle them so that the deposit can be returned with the minimum of fuss at the end of the tenancy rather than the Tenants having to wait months and months while the arbitration scheme deals with any dispute.

Again, no problem with this being done before the exit inspection and anticipate some issues due to the builders marking carpets with paint which was pointed out to the LL when it happened and it was agreed that carpet cleaning would not be necessary but she has now stated that they have to be cleaned! Photographic evidence is held for the mess the builders left on several occasions.

The AST will also say that the Landlord (or his agent) has the right to show the property to prospective Tenants during the last 8 weeks. That's fair enough. I expect the Landlord wants to see what condition it is in before marketing it. It's unlikely there'll be anything in the AST which says they can insist on being present each time.

New tenants have been secured as viewings were done several weeks ago, this created problems because viewers were knocking the door with prior appointments and the LL was supposed to be there to show them around and again didn't turn up.

On the day the Tenants leave they need to be there to meet with the Inventory Clerk who will make a detailed inspection with digital photos to compare the condition of the flat now with the condition recorded in the Inventory taken at the beginning of the tenancy. Inventory clerks are neutral and cannot be manipulated (I've tried!).

The check in inventory doesn't do the place a lot of favours and clearly states a lot of wear and tear was apparent. Does it have to be the same company to do the check out inventory?

From everything you've said during the last year I think both sides will be glad to see the back of each other and there will be a massive argument over the deposit at the end of the Tenancy. It may be a good idea for the Tenants to take their own digital photos now in preparation for the fight.

I couldn't agree more, it was much easier when he was in a student let! Return of deposit is a major concern for them and many photos have been taken during the tenancy so that they have evidence to produce, should it have to got to arbitration

Thank you for your assistance PlanB, fingers crossed they can get it sorted amicably.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Does the LL have the right to enter the premises without any of the tenants being in? I realise if it was an emergency it would be acceptable.

The LL wants to come and inspect the house (tenancy ends 31st July) which isn't a problem but none of the tenants will be in at the time the LL has stated and they aren't comfortable with this, simply because of all the problems they've had throughout the tenancy.

The Landlord does not have the right to enter the property without notice. The AST will probably say he has to give 24 or 48 hours notice. If there's an emergency then the Landlord doesn't have to give any notice. Inspecting the property towards the end of a tenancy isn't an emergency, but if the Landlord has given a reasonable amount of notice then the Tenants can't refuse. If they are concerned about the visit then they should be there. Maybe they should try and negotiate a date/time which is mutually convenient since they've got seven weeks left to agree something.

The Landlord is right to inspect the property prior to the end of the tenancy to anticipate what problems may lie ahead. I expect there will be loads of issues since this has been an unhappy Landlord/Tenant relationship. If both sides can identify the potential disputes now, then they could try to settle them so that the deposit can be returned with the minimum of fuss at the end of the tenancy rather than the Tenants having to wait months and months while the arbitration scheme deals with any dispute.

The AST will also say that the Landlord (or his agent) has the right to show the property to prospective Tenants during the last 8 weeks. That's fair enough. I expect the Landlord wants to see what condition it is in before marketing it. It's unlikely there'll be anything in the AST which says they can insist on being present each time.

On the day the Tenants leave they need to be there to meet with the Inventory Clerk who will make a detailed inspection with digital photos to compare the condition of the flat now with the condition recorded in the Inventory taken at the beginning of the tenancy. Inventory clerks are neutral and cannot be manipulated (I've tried!).

From everything you've said during the last year I think both sides will be glad to see the back of each other and there will be a massive argument over the deposit at the end of the Tenancy. It may be a good idea for the Tenants to take their own digital photos now in preparation for the fight.