New tenancy problem

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Thanks for your help planB, it's greatly appreciated.

See how easily I can do a U-Turn when applicable

At first you were painting a picture of a bunch of precious kids objecting to being woken-up early on a Saturday morning. Then when I challenged your perception of the situation the real misery of the scenario began to emerge. I genuinely think that they now deserve some form of compensation for this but let's wait until it's all over before deciding how to go about this.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

I've told him to take photo's of all the mess, paint marks on carpets etc and I'll ask him to get them all to try and note when the builders arrive and leave and what jobs they're doing although with the housemates all working various hours, it won't be that easy to keep an accurate diary but at least it's noted as much as possible.

The landladies mobile is going to voice mail all the time at the moment and as she also has another business, which is apparent from the message on her voice mail, so I guess that she is away and we will have to wait and see if she gets in touch when she's back.

Thanks for your help planB, it's greatly appreciated.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

This is beginning to sound more like general maintenance than emergency repairs so I'm warming to your argument over a rent rebate. Fixing the leaking roof is an emergency since that was the first time it happened. But if the re-plastering is all to do with an ongoing damp problem then the tenants should have been given some input into the decision on a mutually convenient date/time for the work. When I had a flood I put my tenants in a hotel while the repairs were carried out, but that was paid for by my insurance.

It's probably too late for me to say this but keeping a diary of everything will help. Note the time the builders arrive, what they do on each visit, the mess they make etc. Back it up with digital photos.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Thank you planB,

He had to try and tidy his room up last week after the plastering was done, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to use it and it's now in an even worse state so he's got no option than to do it again. It's not as though he could move out and live somewhere else whilst the work is being done.

Landlady still elusive and no idea if she is on holiday or still just ignoring calls etc.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

He has just sent me some pictures of how his room has been left today and it's an absolute mess and can't now be used, until it's cleaned up yet again!

The builders painted the walls where the re-plastering has been done which is good but they had to move his wardrobe (one of those canvas ones) and wrecked it! They've just thrown everything over the other side of his room.

Would it be unreasonable to deduct the cost of getting a new wardrobe and cleaning costs out of his rent?

Never deduct anything from the rent without a Landlord's written approval upfront. If the situation ended up in court because a Landlord was claiming rent arrears or seeking a possession order this would go against the Tenant. However a Tenant can make a Counterclaim for any losses.

Having said that I think it's perfectly reasonable to hold a Landlord accountable for the cost of damage in the same way that a Landlord would hold a Tenant responsible for damage to their goods.

I think it may make sense to wait for the project to finish before doing anything. Your son has sensibly taken photos. You refer to the flat needing to be "cleaned up again" which implies that it has already been cleaned once. Who did that? Was it a cleaner provided by the Landlord, or did your son and his flatmates pay for a cleaner out of their own pockets? The only difficulty I foresee is claiming for the cost of a cleaner without giving the Landlord the opportunity to provide for one themselves. It's not unreasonable for this to take place at the end of the job. I know this saga seems interminable but 10 days is not a long time in the grand scheme of things.

It's possible that the Landlord has no idea of the mess being made by her builders since she has not visited the premises. Don't judge her just yet. That's not a biased statement it's an overview of the ongoing situation

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

It appears that the landlady may be on holiday, she has still not responded to calls, messages or emails.

He has just sent me some pictures of how his room has been left today and it's an absolute mess and can't now be used, until it's cleaned up yet again!

The builders painted the walls where the re-plastering has been done which is good but they had to move his wardrobe (one of those canvas ones) and wrecked it! They've just thrown everything over the other side of his room.

Would it be unreasonable to deduct the cost of getting a new wardrobe and cleaning costs out of his rent? The disruption has now been going on for ten days.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Hi planB

I agree, the builders can't be on a roof if there's any danger of an accident.

Depending on how long the disruption goes on for, then they will approach her to discuss reduction in rent but as she remains unresponsive, I doubt there will be anything offered.

I've checked the tenancy agreement and it doesn't mention any break clause unfortunately. It's interesting to know that this is a possible option when they are considering other houses.

A strange thing came to light recently regarding the tenancy document. Nobody appears to have a signed copy, the tenants, the agent nor the landlady!

We needed a copy recently for proof of tenancy and the agent said that it was given to the landlady and she says that all copies (4) were left at the house on the day of occupation but there isn't one to be found anywhere and the landlady says she doesn't have the original!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

the builders are now working on the roof to try sort the leak. I do appreciate what you say about work getting done but the house has been like a building site for a week now.

. . . . They are now half way through the 12 month tenancy so they plan to start looking elsewhere now to try and secure somewhere else

I'm glad to hear the builders are dealing with the roof leak. The trouble is builders don't/won't work outside in the rain for health and safety reasons. They could slip and fall. Now the rain has stopped things should move forward.

I do sympathize with your view over the disruption to the Tenants while the work is carried out and maybe when it's all done they can ask for some sort of rent rebate (although it will be hard to quantify). I don't think there will be a legal right to compensation since it's a balance between the Tenants wanting the problems remedied and then complaining when the Landlady does what's needed.

Is there a break clause in that 12 month tenancy agreement? Most Tenants arrange for a break clause at six months for reasons such as these. If there is a break clause then they can give notice any time after the six months is up.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Hi planB, the landlady is still not responding to emails or messages left on her phone.

The roof leak does mean that water is coming through the loft hatch so there's damp on the ceiling and down the walls of the landing and of course the torrential rain has not helped. Some of the town where they are has been very badly flooded but fortunately they are on a hill.

I can't comment about the adjoining house but the builders are now working on the roof to try sort the leak. I do appreciate what you say about work getting done but the house has been like a building site for a week now. Some of them work long shifts and need to get some peace and quiet but it's been very disrupting for all of them.

The environmental people haven't been contacted yet, I think they will now have to wait and see what the end result is when the builders have finished the roof.

The builders seem to be decent guys and want to try and get the problems sorted for them and are just as frustrated because their hands are tied with restrictions that the landlady is imposing on them. Everything appears to be non negotiable.

They are now half way through the 12 month tenancy so they plan to start looking elsewhere now to try and secure somewhere else before the student demand starts in the summer. Where has the time gone?

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

I have now suggested that they contact the local Environmental Health team for further advice.

What has been the advice from the Environmental Health Team? They normally respond rapidly if they think there is a risk to the occupiers The council will be neutral and objective so what they decide to be the case can be relied upon.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

It's now a week since the landlady was advised of the problem with the leaking roof and she has made no contact with any of the tenants. An email has now been sent to her pointing out the ongoing problems and asking what plans she has to sort the roof.

It occurs to me that this roof leak may be caused by the neighbouring property (something you posted earlier which I've quoted below) and the Landlady has to liaise with them over liability issues. I could be wrong. Is the leak in the loft affecting life in the house for the tenants?

On new years day, water was also discovered leaking through the loft hatch and it seems that there is a gap between the adjoining house on the one side.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

It's now a week since the landlady was advised of the problem with the leaking roof and she has made no contact with any of the tenants.

An email has now been sent to her pointing out the ongoing problems and asking what plans she has to sort the roof and also complete the work in my sons room and whether arrangements are being made to clean the mess that has been left.

My son got chatting to the builders and it appears that they too are having problems with the landlady, they have told her what needs doing to get the house up to an acceptable standard but she will not authorise the work so they can only do 'bits and pieces' to try and tidy the house up.

I have now suggested that they contact the local Environmental Health team for further advice.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

The agent that introduced this house told us that many Landlords are now having to spend money on their poorly maintained properties because student demand is reducing due to the huge increase in uni fees thus resulting in an abundance of student rental properties so they are more particular about conditions of where they are going to live and what they expect for the amount of rent being charged.

I think the agent has almost got that right. When tuition fees went sky high the number of domestic students dropped but the places were taken up by international students. Most of these foreign students are from rich families and they will not tolerate typical student housing conditions. They are willing to pay more to rent good quality houses which leaves the properties needing work unlet.

When my daughter was at university she lived in a dreadful house but she loved it. It brought out her inner slumminess. She left half-eaten pizzas under the bed, food in the fridge was covered in mould, and a couple of laptops got trashed from leaving them out in the rain following all-night raves in the back garden. She said she enjoyed the freedom of not having me telling her to clear up all the time.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Hi planB, I don't have a problem with your frankness and please don't take offence, but I think you may be a little biased

If I have any bias it's that of a Mother not a Landlady. If my daughter complained about builders turning up at 10 am to carry out necessary work without sufficient warning I would tell her to "deal with it" and stop making such a fuss.

I accept that the expensive electrical equipment may have been caused damaged if it had not been removed, but it was removed and no damage was caused. If damage had been caused then of course you would be able to claim off the Landlady who in turn would claim off her contractor's insurance. What makes you think that wouldn't happen? Most tenancy agreements include a clause which makes the Tenant take out contents insurance including Accidental Damage cover so the equipment would have been covered either way.

Of course Tenants and all human beings have the right to live in a house free from damp and mould so the Tenants should have contacted the Council's Environmental Health Team in October to report the problem. The Environmental Officer would have made an inspection and if he felt the property was substandard and likely to cause health issues then a stern letter would have been sent to the Landlady threatening all sorts of legal action in the Magistrates Court if it wasn't fixed within 21 days. At that point it would seem reasonable to seek a rent reduction and/or a termination of the contract and new home found for the Tenants.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Hi planB,
I don't have a problem with your frankness and please don't take offence, but I think you may be a little biased

Just to clarify my post, the builders that arrived today only came to try and resolve the damp problem in my sons room which has been ongoing since early October, so this wasn't the quick response you refer to for the leak in the roof. No one had any calls or messages left about them coming and indeed, it wasn't a problem with them being there to do the job, but I still maintain that suitable notice should have been given, even if it was just a few hours.

The issue however is that my son has very expensive musical equipment in his room. If the builders had caused any damage to these items, had they not been removed, who would have paid for the damage? The landlady? I think not! So it was fortunate that he was there to move some things.

Water can do serious damage to electrical equipment and as all the tenants have lots of computer an musical equipment, I don't think it unreasonable to have a house that is free from leaks and any mould resulting from the damp, which I am sure you will appreciate can have health issues too.

As far as the cleaning is concerned, we will see what happens. Son won't be there but has moved as much as poss and covered what he can to reduce any more disruption. Probably a bit late but nothing can be done now!

Sorry I just can't agree with 'poor landlady', more like property rich landlady who is likely to lose good paying tenants.

The agent that introduced this house told us that many Landlords are now having to spend money on their poorly maintained properties because student demand is reducing due to the huge increase in uni fees thus resulting in an abundance of student rental properties so they are more particular about conditions of where they are going to live and what they expect for the amount of rent being charged.

Don't get me wrong, the thought of renting out to students is not something I would like to do but I can only speak from my experience with the three properties my son has lived in whilst at uni and now as a 'professional', it is very apparent that little work was or had been done for the enormous amount of rent that is being charged.

Of course it didn't help that he chose one of the most expensive places for students to live but we didn't discover this until after he accepted his place at uni but I don't suppose that this would have changed his decision to study there.