Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

[QUOTE=SPENTOUT;309195][B][COLOR="Red"]A Full Guide to Unenforceability[/COLOR][/B]

I can't see the images of Example Agreements the little images don't open for me, am I missing something on my computer or is it a bug that needs to be sorted after the site update.



Cheers Spent[/QUOTE]Ermmm, I posted about this somewhere last night - I actually deleted them when we moved servers as they were on a sub-domain of the forum which is no longer there so ooops, they are now gone.

I will redo most of the UE guides later this year as lots has changes since that one but thing is I just don't have time... :\ :\

[Chalkitup]

Re: Welcome to Chalkitup

Hello,
Not sure if anyone will find this post but .......

Where can I find a template letter on here for where an original creditor is refusing to respond to me anymore .....

It is regarding my CCA request to them a few years ago where they sent a recon agreement and added in writing that they are unable to find a copy of my signed application form at present?

They keep farming the account out to DCA's who I quickly see off but now they refuse to reply to me anymore on the subject.

Or should I just wait and see what their next move is instead of writing to them again???

Thanks

[Deepie]

Re: Welcome to Chalkitup

[QUOTE=Chalkitup;314880]Hello,
Not sure if anyone will find this post but .......

Where can I find a template letter on here for where an original creditor is refusing to respond to me anymore .....

It is regarding my CCA request to them a few years ago where they sent a recon agreement and added in writing that they are unable to find a copy of my signed application form at present?

They keep farming the account out to DCA's who I quickly see off but now they refuse to reply to me anymore on the subject.

Or should I just wait and see what their next move is instead of writing to them again???

Thanks[/QUOTE]

I'd keep.....:-#

And just send this if anyone writes to you ---->[URL="http://www.all-about-debt.co.uk/index.php/template-letters/unenforceability/s2-receiving-letters/124-letter-previously-confirming-no-cca"][B]Letter Previously Confirming No CCA[/B][/URL]

[Pixie]

Re: Welcome to Chalkitup

[QUOTE=Deepie;314882]I'd keep.....:-#

[/QUOTE]

Definitely!!

[Chalkitup]

Re: Welcome to Chalkitup

[QUOTE=Deepie;314882]I'd keep.....:-#

And just send this if anyone writes to you ---->[URL="http://www.all-about-debt.co.uk/index.php/template-letters/unenforceability/s2-receiving-letters/124-letter-previously-confirming-no-cca"][B]Letter Previously Confirming No CCA[/B][/URL][/QUOTE]


Thank you very much ........ I will sit back now and wait for next round.

I will also get my AAD Diary started.:-0)

[SA Gold]

Re: Welcome to Chalkitup

[QUOTE=Chalkitup;314911]Thank you very much ........ I will sit back now and wait for next round.

I will also get my AAD Diary started.:-0)[/QUOTE]

All the best! :beer

[cardiac arrest]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

I'm having a mental block...:p

When you first get your application form (from wherever) you should also be able to see the prescribed terms, and there should be some terms and conditions...and reference to cancellation rights.... Now you only ever sign an application form, right ?

So, when you look back..years later, how does a creditor prove that the extra bits of info were actually with the application form ? They don't ask you to sign any of them, yet they are crucial docs.

Now, if it goes to court, heaven forbid, they can reprint the said docs, they even print your name and address on them, type in the credit limit....and produce them and tell the judge, here is what was given with the application form (as if they would have your name and address pre-typed on when you were applying).

So why would a creditor bother typing your name and address on the other docs becasue it is obviously done after the signing ? What does it achieve...

But non of these docs have your signature on them, so it's one word against the other....as Paul has said, it is what you can positively recall from the time now that counts, and then the Creditor does in deed have to 'prove' you had these docs ?

I feel as if I am missing something, as I said, I'm having a mental block...

Why don't creditors get you to sign the other docs if they are so important ?

:s:s:s

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

they can utilise a recon in line with Carey so they don't care.

So long as the recon contains the same info as the original would have done they can make a statement confirming those terms "would" have been used and thus the court tend to buy this.

Its a croc of shyte cos nowhere in any other business interests worldwide can you fabricate a document based on one-sided information and then purport it as being the same form and content as an original.

Its tantamount to forgery however you look at it.

[SA Gold]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

[QUOTE=Never-In-Doubt;315716]
Its a croc of shyte cos nowhere in any other business interests worldwide can you fabricate a document based on one-sided information and then purport it as being the same form and content as an original.
[/QUOTE]

^^^ This is so true!

[cardiac arrest]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

[QUOTE=Never-In-Doubt;315716]they can utilise a recon in line with Carey so they don't care.

So long as the recon contains the same info as the original would have done they can make a statement confirming those terms "would" have been used and thus the court tend to buy this.

Its a croc of shyte cos nowhere in any other business interests worldwide can you fabricate a document based on one-sided information and then purport it as being the same form and content as an original.

Its tantamount to forgery however you look at it.[/QUOTE]

But of course if their recon happens to be at odds with the data from the time......is that 'over and out' ?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

[QUOTE=cardiac arrest;316222]But of course if their recon happens to be at odds with the data from the time......is that 'over and out' ?[/QUOTE]

well that depends on lots of things - the content and form must be the same, so they cannot add/remove info and purport it to be from the original BUT they can issue more than one copy and claim to have satisfied s.78.

If of course you never received the terms, it doesn't matter what they send cos you aint seen em have you so they'd lose. :)

[cardiac arrest]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

[QUOTE=Never-In-Doubt;316227]well that depends on lots of things - the content and form must be the same, so they cannot add/remove info and purport it to be from the original BUT they can issue more than one copy and claim to have satisfied s.78.

If of course you never received the terms, it doesn't matter what they send cos you aint seen em have you so they'd lose. :)[/QUOTE]

Indeed so, but to clarify for my now clearing mind :s...as far as 127(3) pre april 2007 is concerned, all the relevant docs need to be present at the time of signing; so if the Creditor sent the PT's after (maybe with the credit card)..that's too late...? In this case the debtor would be able to check the form and content of what a creditor may subsequently purport to be from the original, and prove to a Court it is in fact not what they claim it to be, while at the same time proving it was sent after the signing ?

This kinda brings me back to where I started, as to why a Creditor would tell the Court.."here is the full document, with all the details".. and yet include the name and address of the Debtor, as that could only have been added later, after the application form/agreement was signed ? It doesn't add any weight to their argument in my mind, although as you say, maybe a Judge would be influenced by the formality of it..

[mystery1]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

[QUOTE]Indeed so, but to clarify for my now clearing mind ...as far as 127(3) pre april 2007 is concerned, all the relevant docs need to be present at the time of signing; so if the Creditor sent the PT's after (maybe with the credit card)..that's too late...?[/QUOTE]


Correct. It will come down to evidence though.

[QUOTE] In this case the debtor would be able to check the form and content of what a creditor may subsequently purport to be from the original, and prove to a Court it is in fact not what they claim it to be, while at the same time proving it was sent after the signing ?[/QUOTE]

If they can then the creditor is screwed. Most cannot do this, sadly.

[QUOTE]This kinda brings me back to where I started, as to why a Creditor would tell the Court.."here is the full document, with all the details".. and yet include the name and address of the Debtor, as that could only have been added later, after the application form/agreement was signed ? It doesn't add any weight to their argument in my mind, although as you say, maybe a Judge would be influenced by the formality of it..[/QUOTE]

The executed copy needs a signature on it although a true copy of it does not. s77-79 need only a true copy of the executed agreement.

The document without the debtors name and address would be an UNexecuted copy.


You have to be careful not to confuse s77-9 unenforceability which can be cured with iredeemable unenforceability s127 (3) & (4) which cannot be cured in normal circumstances.

M1

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

One thing mentioned recently was that, an application for Credit card may of been made but on the signature form states that you sign that you have read section xx of the Terms etc, yet it was pointed out the Terms etc arrived with card & carrier after the application went off, anybody seen this one as sounds relevant to a lot of what people say, just a thought?

[PriorityOne]

Re: Unenforceability General Questions & Answers

Where an individual claims never to have signed an original..... the burden of proof is placed right back where it belongs and a creditor/DCA will need to find an original; also in line with (the proof purpose within) Carey.