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Morse: Number One
Type of Acc: Northern Rock Personal Loan
Date Commenced: October 2006
Approx Balance: £23,000
(£25,000 original amount, £34,000 total including interest)
Date Last Paid: June 2008
Current Arrangement: £1.00 pcm
Status: Defaulted
Account Owner: Marlin.
(Collections Agent Cabot)
Hello, this is my first time posting. I'm looking for some input please. I have 6 other outstanding debts so I'll create separate posts for those in the next day or so. This forum and its members are amazing, I gave up on forums years ago but then I came across you and I've been blown away by the dedication shown by many of your members. Thank you in advance - I am truly grateful for any help.
By way of background...
13/09/2013 - Sold to Marlin
(Between 2013 and April 2018 I spoke to Cabot over the phone on a couple of occasions, I received letters for review etc but I largely ignored them).
April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.
(August I found AAD)
07/09/2018 - I sent a request under Section 77/78 for all our accounts owned by them.
13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a covering letter, a copy of the signed Credit Agreement, a set of terms and conditions and a statement of the account. The covering letter states:
"We consider that the agreement is now enforceable and therefore we are entitled to obtain a County Court Judgement against you. However, we would prefer that you work with us to set up a repayment plan to settle your outstanding balance."
This is by far the largest of our debts, after taking this one I had to accept we had a problem and I haven't entered into a credit agreement of any kind since this one.
I remember taking a punt by applying because I didn't think we had any chance of being approved for the loan and I remember trying to cancel when the direct debit mandate came and I realised I couldn't afford the monthly payment. As I couldn't seem to cancel, they reduced the monthly repayment by a reasonable amount (the monthly repayment was £286 - I'm sure it was nearer £330 before). I think they must have removed my husband's name from the agreement at the same time because the agreement is very clearly in my name only and signed only by me. This is a relief, but I was very surprised as the loan was based on our joint income.
I was so surprised, that I tackled the filing cabinet in my cellar (I haven't opened it for around 10 years) I found the original. What Cabot have sent is a photocopy of the front of my agreement, but the terms and conditions are slightly different. Funnily enough the clause not in my terms and conditions seems to be in relation to joint applications as it states...
"If there is more than one borrower, references in this Agreement shall refer to each and every person who signed this Agreement and the liability of such person to us shall be joint and several so that each borrower is fully liable for the full amount due to us at any time."
Probably irrelevant but I guess Northern Rock realised it wasn't a good idea to use someone else's income for an agreement and then not refer to that person as its clear from this that the terms and conditions changed.
What I can't understand now (having spent every spare moment in the last two weeks reading about the CCA) is why I couldn't cancel the loan when I wanted to. It was not taken out in a branch or in person or anything like that. It was unsecured, for exactly £25,000 and must have been regulated by the the CCA (the signature box says so although, . I read about cases where people had loans as part of a Together mortgage and despite stating that they were covered by the CCA they were not). This loan was the only account we had with Northern Rock.
There is no reference whatsoever in the signed agreement, the terms and conditions or the letter confirming the money was in our account as to the ability/right to cancel the agreement.
Is this all correct?
Many thanks, Morse.
Update 23/09/18 - sent the agreement to Niddy at the webmaster email address.
After everything I have read, I believe this agreement was improperly executed because it was missing information on the right to cancel (S 60) I also beleve it is irredeemably unenforceable because it can't be rectified (there was no information in any of the original documents regarding cancellation either). Because it was pre 2007 a court cannot enforce it.
Fingers crossed anyway! I'll post Niddy's reply as soon as I get it.
Edit: oh no! I've realised, whilst it is definitely improperly executed, S127 isn't going to apply because I signed an agreement containing all the prescribed terms.
I guess the question I should be asking is whether there is a chance I can persuade a judge not to enforce it? Can the court choose not to enforce an improperly executed agreement even though there is a signed agreement containing all the prescribed terms (but not in the correct form)? I confused myself into thinking the omission of the cancellation clause was some sort of fatal error (because Parliament had laid down the requirements for regulated agreements and if they were not followed the consequences would be dire for the lender - even if it meant enrichment(? ) would occur - or words to the effect of).
This loan allowed me to delay the inevitable for a couple of years. Had I been able to cancel it when I knew I couldn't make the payments it would have meant financial ruin in 2007 rather than in 2009. All the loan actually allowed us to do was continue making payments on the other credit we had for two more years.
I may contact Di for a formal opinion. My brother says he'd rather pay to fight this than pay Cabot.
Any thoughts welcome and appreciated.
Correspondence received 24/09
Dear Morse
Were writing to you today to let you know your account has been moved to our Sensitive Support team as we understand you're going through a difficult time and we're here to help.
About our Sensitive Support Team
This is a dedicated team of specially trained people who are there to understand your situation and to offer you support when you need it.
Most importantly, the people you'll now be dealing with have a deep passion to help you and they want to make dealing with Cabot as easy as possible.
What Happens Next?
We'd like to understand your situation further so we can find the best possible solution for you and this account - rest assured we will never ask anything of you that either you can't afford or manage.
Please can you get in touch with us within 30 days of this letter, however is easiest for you. If we don't hear from you in this time we'll be back in touch.
We'll speak to you soon.
Yours sincerely
Debarah Green
Customer Operations Director
This is a rather lovely letter. Not sure how to approach.
Type of Acc: Northern Rock Personal Loan
Date Commenced: October 2006
Approx Balance: £23,000
(£25,000 original amount, £34,000 total including interest)
Date Last Paid: June 2008
Current Arrangement: £1.00 pcm
Status: Defaulted
Account Owner: Marlin.
(Collections Agent Cabot)
Hello, this is my first time posting. I'm looking for some input please. I have 6 other outstanding debts so I'll create separate posts for those in the next day or so. This forum and its members are amazing, I gave up on forums years ago but then I came across you and I've been blown away by the dedication shown by many of your members. Thank you in advance - I am truly grateful for any help.
By way of background...
13/09/2013 - Sold to Marlin
(Between 2013 and April 2018 I spoke to Cabot over the phone on a couple of occasions, I received letters for review etc but I largely ignored them).
April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.
(August I found AAD)
07/09/2018 - I sent a request under Section 77/78 for all our accounts owned by them.
13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a covering letter, a copy of the signed Credit Agreement, a set of terms and conditions and a statement of the account. The covering letter states:
"We consider that the agreement is now enforceable and therefore we are entitled to obtain a County Court Judgement against you. However, we would prefer that you work with us to set up a repayment plan to settle your outstanding balance."
This is by far the largest of our debts, after taking this one I had to accept we had a problem and I haven't entered into a credit agreement of any kind since this one.
I remember taking a punt by applying because I didn't think we had any chance of being approved for the loan and I remember trying to cancel when the direct debit mandate came and I realised I couldn't afford the monthly payment. As I couldn't seem to cancel, they reduced the monthly repayment by a reasonable amount (the monthly repayment was £286 - I'm sure it was nearer £330 before). I think they must have removed my husband's name from the agreement at the same time because the agreement is very clearly in my name only and signed only by me. This is a relief, but I was very surprised as the loan was based on our joint income.
I was so surprised, that I tackled the filing cabinet in my cellar (I haven't opened it for around 10 years) I found the original. What Cabot have sent is a photocopy of the front of my agreement, but the terms and conditions are slightly different. Funnily enough the clause not in my terms and conditions seems to be in relation to joint applications as it states...
"If there is more than one borrower, references in this Agreement shall refer to each and every person who signed this Agreement and the liability of such person to us shall be joint and several so that each borrower is fully liable for the full amount due to us at any time."
Probably irrelevant but I guess Northern Rock realised it wasn't a good idea to use someone else's income for an agreement and then not refer to that person as its clear from this that the terms and conditions changed.
What I can't understand now (having spent every spare moment in the last two weeks reading about the CCA) is why I couldn't cancel the loan when I wanted to. It was not taken out in a branch or in person or anything like that. It was unsecured, for exactly £25,000 and must have been regulated by the the CCA (the signature box says so although, . I read about cases where people had loans as part of a Together mortgage and despite stating that they were covered by the CCA they were not). This loan was the only account we had with Northern Rock.
There is no reference whatsoever in the signed agreement, the terms and conditions or the letter confirming the money was in our account as to the ability/right to cancel the agreement.
Is this all correct?
Many thanks, Morse.
Update 23/09/18 - sent the agreement to Niddy at the webmaster email address.
After everything I have read, I believe this agreement was improperly executed because it was missing information on the right to cancel (S 60) I also beleve it is irredeemably unenforceable because it can't be rectified (there was no information in any of the original documents regarding cancellation either). Because it was pre 2007 a court cannot enforce it.
Fingers crossed anyway! I'll post Niddy's reply as soon as I get it.
Edit: oh no! I've realised, whilst it is definitely improperly executed, S127 isn't going to apply because I signed an agreement containing all the prescribed terms.
I guess the question I should be asking is whether there is a chance I can persuade a judge not to enforce it? Can the court choose not to enforce an improperly executed agreement even though there is a signed agreement containing all the prescribed terms (but not in the correct form)? I confused myself into thinking the omission of the cancellation clause was some sort of fatal error (because Parliament had laid down the requirements for regulated agreements and if they were not followed the consequences would be dire for the lender - even if it meant enrichment(? ) would occur - or words to the effect of).
This loan allowed me to delay the inevitable for a couple of years. Had I been able to cancel it when I knew I couldn't make the payments it would have meant financial ruin in 2007 rather than in 2009. All the loan actually allowed us to do was continue making payments on the other credit we had for two more years.
I may contact Di for a formal opinion. My brother says he'd rather pay to fight this than pay Cabot.
Any thoughts welcome and appreciated.
Correspondence received 24/09
Dear Morse
Were writing to you today to let you know your account has been moved to our Sensitive Support team as we understand you're going through a difficult time and we're here to help.
About our Sensitive Support Team
This is a dedicated team of specially trained people who are there to understand your situation and to offer you support when you need it.
Most importantly, the people you'll now be dealing with have a deep passion to help you and they want to make dealing with Cabot as easy as possible.
What Happens Next?
We'd like to understand your situation further so we can find the best possible solution for you and this account - rest assured we will never ask anything of you that either you can't afford or manage.
Please can you get in touch with us within 30 days of this letter, however is easiest for you. If we don't hear from you in this time we'll be back in touch.
We'll speak to you soon.
Yours sincerely
Debarah Green
Customer Operations Director
This is a rather lovely letter. Not sure how to approach.
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