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  • Morse's Unenforceability Diary

    Morse: Number One

    Type of Acc: Northern Rock Personal Loan
    Date Commenced: October 2006
    Approx Balance: £23,000
    (£25,000 original amount, £34,000 total including interest)
    Date Last Paid: June 2008
    Current Arrangement: £1.00 pcm
    Status: Defaulted
    Account Owner: Marlin.
    (Collections Agent Cabot)

    Hello, this is my first time posting. I'm looking for some input please. I have 6 other outstanding debts so I'll create separate posts for those in the next day or so. This forum and its members are amazing, I gave up on forums years ago but then I came across you and I've been blown away by the dedication shown by many of your members. Thank you in advance - I am truly grateful for any help.

    By way of background...

    13/09/2013 - Sold to Marlin

    (Between 2013 and April 2018 I spoke to Cabot over the phone on a couple of occasions, I received letters for review etc but I largely ignored them).

    April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.

    (August I found AAD)

    07/09/2018 - I sent a request under Section 77/78 for all our accounts owned by them.

    13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a covering letter, a copy of the signed Credit Agreement, a set of terms and conditions and a statement of the account. The covering letter states:
    "We consider that the agreement is now enforceable and therefore we are entitled to obtain a County Court Judgement against you. However, we would prefer that you work with us to set up a repayment plan to settle your outstanding balance."

    This is by far the largest of our debts, after taking this one I had to accept we had a problem and I haven't entered into a credit agreement of any kind since this one.

    I remember taking a punt by applying because I didn't think we had any chance of being approved for the loan and I remember trying to cancel when the direct debit mandate came and I realised I couldn't afford the monthly payment. As I couldn't seem to cancel, they reduced the monthly repayment by a reasonable amount (the monthly repayment was £286 - I'm sure it was nearer £330 before). I think they must have removed my husband's name from the agreement at the same time because the agreement is very clearly in my name only and signed only by me. This is a relief, but I was very surprised as the loan was based on our joint income.

    I was so surprised, that I tackled the filing cabinet in my cellar (I haven't opened it for around 10 years) I found the original. What Cabot have sent is a photocopy of the front of my agreement, but the terms and conditions are slightly different. Funnily enough the clause not in my terms and conditions seems to be in relation to joint applications as it states...
    "If there is more than one borrower, references in this Agreement shall refer to each and every person who signed this Agreement and the liability of such person to us shall be joint and several so that each borrower is fully liable for the full amount due to us at any time."
    Probably irrelevant but I guess Northern Rock realised it wasn't a good idea to use someone else's income for an agreement and then not refer to that person as its clear from this that the terms and conditions changed.

    What I can't understand now (having spent every spare moment in the last two weeks reading about the CCA) is why I couldn't cancel the loan when I wanted to. It was not taken out in a branch or in person or anything like that. It was unsecured, for exactly £25,000 and must have been regulated by the the CCA (the signature box says so although, . I read about cases where people had loans as part of a Together mortgage and despite stating that they were covered by the CCA they were not). This loan was the only account we had with Northern Rock.

    There is no reference whatsoever in the signed agreement, the terms and conditions or the letter confirming the money was in our account as to the ability/right to cancel the agreement.

    Is this all correct?

    Many thanks, Morse.

    Update 23/09/18 - sent the agreement to Niddy at the webmaster email address.

    After everything I have read, I believe this agreement was improperly executed because it was missing information on the right to cancel (S 60) I also beleve it is irredeemably unenforceable because it can't be rectified (there was no information in any of the original documents regarding cancellation either). Because it was pre 2007 a court cannot enforce it.
    Fingers crossed anyway! I'll post Niddy's reply as soon as I get it.
    Edit: oh no! I've realised, whilst it is definitely improperly executed, S127 isn't going to apply because I signed an agreement containing all the prescribed terms.

    I guess the question I should be asking is whether there is a chance I can persuade a judge not to enforce it? Can the court choose not to enforce an improperly executed agreement even though there is a signed agreement containing all the prescribed terms (but not in the correct form)? I confused myself into thinking the omission of the cancellation clause was some sort of fatal error (because Parliament had laid down the requirements for regulated agreements and if they were not followed the consequences would be dire for the lender - even if it meant enrichment(? ) would occur - or words to the effect of).

    This loan allowed me to delay the inevitable for a couple of years. Had I been able to cancel it when I knew I couldn't make the payments it would have meant financial ruin in 2007 rather than in 2009. All the loan actually allowed us to do was continue making payments on the other credit we had for two more years.

    I may contact Di for a formal opinion. My brother says he'd rather pay to fight this than pay Cabot.

    Any thoughts welcome and appreciated
    .

    Correspondence received 24/09
    Dear Morse

    Were writing to you today to let you know your account has been moved to our Sensitive Support team as we understand you're going through a difficult time and we're here to help.

    About our Sensitive Support Team

    This is a dedicated team of specially trained people who are there to understand your situation and to offer you support when you need it.

    Most importantly, the people you'll now be dealing with have a deep passion to help you and they want to make dealing with Cabot as easy as possible.

    What Happens Next?

    We'd like to understand your situation further so we can find the best possible solution for you and this account - rest assured we will never ask anything of you that either you can't afford or manage.

    Please can you get in touch with us within 30 days of this letter, however is easiest for you. If we don't hear from you in this time we'll be back in touch.

    We'll speak to you soon.

    Yours sincerely

    Debarah Green
    Customer Operations Director


    This is a rather lovely letter. Not sure how to approach.

  • #2
    Hello

    I’ll wait to comment on your situation when the whole story unfolds.

    Welcome to this forum where you will get help and support .

    Di



    Legal Disclaimer

    I am a Litigation Executive at Joanna Connolly Solicitors a firm which specialises in consumer credit. If you need to contact me you can send a message by clicking on my username or by emailing me at di@joannaconnollysolicitors.co.uk or by telephoning 0330 053 9340. My Direct Line is 0151 254 6986 Our initial advice is always free.

    Any posts I make on the AAD Consumer Forum are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any advice I provide on the forum is without liability. If you are unsure please seek formal legal guidance or contact your local citizens advice bureau at https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Di

      Thank you for responding. Can I give you any more information as to the whole story? I wasn't sure what to provide. I appreciate you have said you'll wait to respond but if you want anything specific please let me know.

      Best wishes
      Morse

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Welcome to the forum, yes forums days are over everyone has moved to social media but this forum the only one active with amazing members.

        I will let the more experience members to comment I just noticed last payment is on June 2008, depending when it was defaulted that should be SB by now.

        Try to list all your debts, it will help, and just to let you know, almost all my debts will be dropping off in few months, thanks to this forum, all their threats goes away after I send them one letter from here. Like you I was scared to open letters.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Morse,

          I am still relatively new on my journey myself (2 years).

          I stumbled upon this forum, can't remember how, all I know I was trying to find the best way to get my wife and I out of a terrible situation. We are currently on our long walk on this journey.

          I am so grateful that I found this site and people that I will never meet have held my hand many times.

          It truly is a life saver and life changer.

          I dreaded opening my mail sometimes leaving it weeks before I plucked up the courage, now I am so much more confident.

          Trust the advice you get on here and best of luck!

          Comment


          • #6
            Morse: Debt Number Two

            Type of Account: Lloyd's Credit Card
            Date Commenced: c1999
            Approx Balance: £8,500
            Date Last Paid: 2010
            Current Arrangement: £1.00 pcm
            Status: Defaulted
            Account Owner: Marlin Europe V Limited

            I'm struggling to find much history on this one. Between 2008 and 2011 our debts got so out of control I couldn't deal with any of it. I unplugged the phone, and I used to take carrier bags of unopened post to the tip.

            This is what I recall happening with this account.

            c 2014 - Sold to Marlin

            May 2016 - Cabot passed to Restons, Restons issued a claim form. I called Restons in a huge panic. Restons agreed to hold. I set up a £1.00 pcm payment.

            July 2016 - Restons reopened the claim and emailed me to say the claim would now be made and wouldn't be withdrawn.

            I called Cabot, broke down, explained our dreadful circumstances and they stopped the action. (They added all the costs though).


            April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.

            (August I found AAD)

            07/09/2018 - I sent Cabot a request under Section 77/78.

            13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a letter:

            Unfortunately we currently do not have the relevant information on file, so we will be requesting a copy of the credit agreement and terms and conditions from your original lender, as well as a statement of your account. This may take some time, but we will write to you within the next 12 days with an update.



            I found a CCA request to Lloyds that I made in 2010. Lloyds sent me a reconstituted agreement. At the time they said this was totally enforceable (quoting Carey) and that they would not enter into further correspondence regarding the agreement.

            Since spending so much time in here, I'm pretty sure what they sent is unenforceable - the interest rates on it are all wrong and it is not signed. Perhaps I should not have sent another CCA but it would be good to see if Lloyds send anything different this time.

            Thank you.
            Last edited by Morse; 21st September 2018, 16:32.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Sara and Strepsi

              Hello and thank you for your welcome, it's really appreciated. I have read both your diaries and I'm delighted to see how things progress for you.

              I can't quite get over the support from the members, it is truly heartwarming.

              Sara - sadly I've been making token £1.00 payments for years, so I'm at far away from SB as I can be! I'm just in the process of posting a new reply for each debt.

              I've been scared for years with all the debt that's been hanging over us. But I'm starting to feel that there may be a light at the end of the tunnel.

              Thanks again, take care

              Best, Morse

              Comment


              • #8
                Morse: Debt Number Three

                Type of Account: Halifax Credit Card
                Date Commenced: August 2005
                Approx Balance: £6,500
                Date Last Paid in Full: 2010
                Current Arrangement: £1.00 pcm
                Status: Defaulted
                Account Owner: Marlin Europe V Limited

                As with all the other debts, my paperwork isn't great. It was with Blair, Oliver and Scott for a few years, then it was sold to Marlin.

                April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.

                (August I found AAD)

                07/09/2018 - I sent Cabot a request under Section 77/78.

                13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a letter:

                Unfortunately we currently do not have the relevant information on file, so we will be requesting a copy of the credit agreement and terms and conditions from your original lender, as well as a statement of your account. This may take some time, but we will write to you within the next 12 days with an update.

                I found in my records, a CCA request that went to Halifax in 2010. They sent a reconstructed agreement with terms and conditions, plus a copy signed by me (but not by the bank) of a credit agreement. To me, this one looks enforceable but again it will be interesting to see what they can provide now.

                Thanks for reading, Morse
                Last edited by Morse; 21st September 2018, 16:33.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Morse: Debt Number Four

                  Type of Account: Tesco Credit Card
                  Date Commenced: August 2005
                  Approx Balance: £900
                  Date Last Paid in Full: 2010
                  Current Arrangement: Not paid anything for around 12 months
                  Status: Defaulted
                  Account Owner: Cabot Financial UK Limited

                  April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.

                  (August I found AAD)

                  07/09/2018 - I sent Cabot a request under Section 77/78.

                  13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a letter:

                  Unfortunately we currently do not have the relevant information on file, so we will be requesting a copy of the credit agreement and terms and conditions from your original lender, as well as a statement of your account. This may take some time, but we will write to you within the next 12 days with an update.

                  I found in my records, a CCA request that went to Tesco in 2010. They sent me a photocopy of the application form. It was a flyer I picked up in the supermarket, along with a copy of some terms and conditions (which are headed Credit Agreement... But my details aren't on there anywhere abs I'm almost certain they were not included in the original flyer /application).

                  I haven't paid anything in a while as Cabot said my finances wouldn't allow the £1.00 pcm.

                  They've now asked me to set up a repayment plan, I will wait until they have competed my CCA request.

                  I've read all the Cabot threads on the site and I've seen a couple of similar Tesco ones, I'll have a good look at these over the next day.

                  Many thanks again.
                  Best regards Morse
                  Last edited by Morse; 21st September 2018, 15:11. Reason: Figured out how to edit!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Morse View Post
                    Morse: Debt Number Two

                    Type of Account: Lloyd's Credit Card

                    Date Commenced: c1999

                    Approx Balance: £8,500

                    Date Last Paid: 2010

                    Current Arrangement: £1.00 pcm

                    Status: Defaulted

                    Account Owner: Marlin Europe V Limited


                    I'm struggling to find much history on this one. Between 2008 and 2011 our debts got so out of control I couldn't deal with any of it. I unplugged the phone, and I used to take carrier bags of unopened post to the tip.

                    This is what I recall happening with this account.

                    c 2014 - Sold to Marlin

                    May 2016 - Cabot passed to Restons, Restons issued a claim form. I called Restons in a huge panic. Restons agreed to hold. I set up a £1.00 pcm payment.

                    July 2016 - Restons reopened the claim and emailed me to say the claim would now be made and wouldn't be withdrawn.

                    I called Cabot, broke down, explained our dreadful circumstances and they stopped the action. (They added all the costs though).


                    April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.

                    (August I found AAD)

                    07/09/2018 - I sent Cabot a request under Section 77/78.

                    13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a letter:

                    Unfortunately we currently do not have the relevant information on file, so we will be requesting a copy of the credit agreement and terms and conditions from your original lender, as well as a statement of your account. This may take some time, but we will write to you within the next 12 days with an update.



                    I found a CCA request to Lloyds that I made in 2010. Lloyds sent me a reconstituted agreement. At the time they said this was totally enforceable (quoting Carey) and that they would not enter into further correspondence regarding the agreement.

                    Since spending so much time in here, I'm pretty sure what they sent is enforceable - the interest rates on it are all wrong and it is not signed. Perhaps I should not have sent another CCA but it would be good to see if Lloyds send anything different this time.

                    Thank you.
                    Was this a lloyds CC or was it a TSB CC that changed to Lloyds,

                    ours started life as a TSB chq card, then into a Visa debit card ( when they started out many moons ago) then into a Lloyds Credit card, they couldn't find anything to send us.
                    But did keep assuring me that We would of signed a CCA when taken out, I didn't it was in Hubbys name
                    I take it you mean it is UNenforceable because of the items mentioned.
                    they also give the" We will not enter into any more correspondence" quote to get out of any awkward questions you may send.

                    I think I replied to that letter with:- thank you for your last letter dated xxxxxx, I have taken note of its contents and will agree with you not to contact each other again, UNLESS you send me a compliant CCA.
                    They passed it on sharpish to the 1st of many DCAs

                    NW x
                    Last edited by nightwatch; 20th September 2018, 17:47. Reason: brain fog
                    I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

                    If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hiya NW
                      ​​​​​​Thank you for your reply. I have read your Lloyd's thread, so frustrating. To answer your question - yes I meant unenforceable (technology is not my friend and I couldn't work out how to edit a post!) this was definitely a Lloyd's account - I think it came with my hubbies bank account. They said similar to us about being sure I would have signed something.
                      I'm cross (not surprised) as I realise now Cabot sent this for legal action without any paperwork.
                      I would gladly stop paying them the token monthly payment if I'm confident they can't produce anything enforceable. Losing a court case isn't an option on this one though, as it's in my husband's name and if he gets a CCJ it will affect his employment.

                      Thanks again for your reply.
                      Best, Morse xx

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you have any questions please ask Di, she will be more than happy to help you through the mine field that is cabot and court,

                        she is the voice of reason, I am the joker in the pack.
                        I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

                        If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Morse View Post
                          Morse: Debt Number Four


                          Type of Account: Tesco Credit Card


                          Date Commenced: August 2005


                          Approx Balance: £900


                          Date Last Paid in Full: 2010


                          Current Arrangement: Not paid anything for around 12 months


                          Status: Defaulted


                          Account Owner: Cabot Financial UK Limited








                          April 2018 - I wrote (emailed) Cabot to update them on our circumstances and offer a settlement figure. It was a low offer funded by my bother. Cabot refused.


                          (August I found AAD)


                          07/09/2018 - I sent Cabot a request under Section 77/78.


                          13/09/2018 - Cabot respond with a letter:


                          Unfortunately we currently do not have the relevant information on file, so we will be requesting a copy of the credit agreement and terms and conditions from your original lender, as well as a statement of your account. This may take some time, but we will write to you within the next 12 days with an update.




                          I found in my records, a CCA request that went to Tesco in 2010. They sent me a photocopy of the application form. It was a flyer I picked up in the supermarket, along with a copy of some terms and conditions (which are headed Credit Agreement... But my details aren't on there anywhere abs I'm almost certain they were not included in the original flyer /application).


                          I haven't paid anything in a while as Cabot said my finances wouldn't allow the £1.00 pcm.


                          They've now asked me to set up a repayment plan, I will wait until they have competed my CCA request.


                          I've read all the Cabot threads on the site and I've seen a couple of similar Tesco ones, I'll have a good look at these over the next day.


                          Many thanks again.
                          Best regards Morse
                          My Tesco card was applied for in store, bloke, clipboard, sign here,

                          They have never sent me the original T&C, all the DCAs keep telling me it's enforceable,
                          Robinsonway were so convinced that the kindly sent a "Field agent" to visit me in my home,
                          I am now awaiting a reply to a complaint made to them about that visit.
                          If they check carefully they will find that is UE and statute barred,

                          Oops they have a problem
                          I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

                          If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hiya NW
                            That's great! They are so silly carrying on like that.
                            I'm hoping Cabot will be more sensible..! I've read they will write and tell you if they haven't got anything enforceable. I did quite like Cabot, they have been very understanding in the past - but, not so much recently.
                            I do hope to open a dialogue with Di, her advice and the comfort it brings is so empowering. I'm fairly comfortable on the bulk of our debt, we haven't got any money but we do have a very small amount of equity in our home. If the worst came to the absolute worst my brother would help me out. He's offered me £5,000 to try and settle it all. I've been so desperate to settle - I wrote to Cabot to offer them the £5,000 plus I actually asked them to secure another £4,000 on our home as there was nothing else to offer - no point in a monthly plan as we wouldn't be able to afford the payments. Cabot refused and said they would not secure anything on the house.
                            (I feel silly having done this as I have now read all the advice on her - but the debt affects my mental health and I just wanted an end to it ).

                            Thank you NW because just having a couple of messages from you and being able to talk about things is already making me feel a bit better.
                            Best, Morse xx
                            ​​

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              always here if you need me xx
                              I'm an official AAD Moderator and also a volunteer, here to help make the forum run smoothly. Any views or opinions are mine and not the official line of AAD. Similarly, any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability. If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional - Find a Solicitor or go to the National Probono Centre.

                              If you spot an abusive or libellous post then please report it by Clicking Here. If you need to contact me, for instance if I've issued you a warning, moved, edited or deleted your post, please send me a message by clicking my username.

                              Comment

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