asm76's UE Diary

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

The "Express Application" is one sided btw. The copy of the agreement and conditions they've sent, which includes a box for my signature and is unsigned, contains all the prescribed terms. This, I assume, is what they refer to when they say I would have received a copy when my card was issued. I also notice there is a space for AMEX to sign on the Express application but that is blank also.

Just wondering what my next move is?

[Deepie]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

The "Express Application" is one sided btw. The copy of the agreement and conditions they've sent, which includes a box for my signature and is unsigned, contains all the prescribed terms. This, I assume, is what they refer to when they say I would have received a copy when my card was issued. I also notice there is a space for AMEX to sign on the Express application but that is blank also.

Just wondering what my next move is?

If it were me I would send this------> Final Response - Unenforceable (CCA Received)

[SXGuy]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

The "Express Application" is one sided btw. The copy of the agreement and conditions they've sent, which includes a box for my signature and is unsigned, contains all the prescribed terms. This, I assume, is what they refer to when they say I would have received a copy when my card was issued. I also notice there is a space for AMEX to sign on the Express application but that is blank also.

Just wondering what my next move is?

What they have done, as with most of us here, is sent you a copy of your application page with your signature, or not (doesnt need one) and a reconstituted copy of your prescribed terms.

I.e they have used what they believe to be the terms at the time you signed and sent it to you. It may not be a true copy, in which case, its unenforceable.

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

Cheers I2D... I'll send it tomorrow

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

What they have done, as with most of us here, is sent you a copy of your application page with your signature, or not (doesnt need one) and a reconstituted copy of your prescribed terms.

I.e they have used what they believe to be the terms at the time you signed and sent it to you. It may not be a true copy, in which case, its unenforceable.

Niddy said they can't be a copy of the terms they issued with my card, otherwise I would have signed them.

[PlanB]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

Niddy said they can't be a copy of the terms they issued with my card, otherwise I would have signed them.

I don't think you need to have actually signed the Ts & Cs but they do have to be *linked* to the credit agreement you did sign (errrm, agreeing to be bound by them), but not some random generic booklet sent out two weeks later

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

On the recon copy they've sent there is a space to sign to agree to the terms which is blank. I know that they can send a recon copy of the terms in force at the time, but I believe they have to be in possession of the originals to succeed in court?

I've asked them 3 times for a true copy, so far they have only satisfied the CCA 1974 request I made, but they aren't willing to provide a "true copy".

[PlanB]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

In the case of HFO Capital vs. Roland Wegmuller the creditor lost the case because it was proved that although the creditor produced recon Ts & Cs, the Defendant (an AAD member) was able to prove that these weren't provided at the time he signed the CCA. This was one of Paul's greatest triumphs for the consumer

Here you go * : http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...ead.php?t=5088


* this thread is in the Legal Protected Section but the Link Fairy may wish to add the PDF judgment here for all to read and gloat

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

Good read. Thanks.

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

[QUOTE=asm76;205771]Type of account: Credit Card (AMEX)
Date commenced: 11/07/2003
Approx balance: £5289.19
Date last paid: Feb 2012
Are you on arrangement or not paying: Not paying
Status: Default dropped off credit file October 2011
Account owner: Capquest

07/03/2012 - Sent CCA request
10/03/2012 - Letter received stating my account was on hold for 28 days while they source the CCA.
22/05/2012 - Received a stack of statements dating back to 2005. An "Express Application" form signed by me. Copy of a CCA, unsigned.
22/05/2012 - Emailed Niddy - Account
28/05/2012 - Sent missing prescribed terms letter
08/06/2012 - Letter received: "Referred to the compliance department. A quality assurance officer will be in touch. Account on hold etc."
09/06/2012 - Another letter received dated 2nd June (crossed in the post with the letter received on 8th June 2012, which was dated 7th June 2012). This one is a "Letter Before Action" saying my account will be progressed to their pre-litigation department, mentions their solicitors MAY commence legal action "around 8th June 2012" (yesterday lol!). Mentions "Order of the Court", "Warrant of Execution" and then goes on to threaten all the things Bailiffs will do to me, removing my possessions, extra fees etc. etc. Then they tell me that to avoid this action I should call them.
19/06/2012 - Letter received quoting Carey vs HSBC and recon agreements.
19/06/2012 - Sent Threat by Creditor - Threat-o-Gram Letter Before Action
27/06/2012 - Letter received thanking me for my recent correspondence. My account is "on-hold" while they investigate my complaint in line with their in-house procedure. They'll be in contact with me with the results of their findings. They've kindly enclosed a copy of their "Complaints Handling Leaflet" for my information.
30/06/2012 - Letter received from Mr Hawkes the Complaints Officer. They have sent me the same express application, unsigned CCA and statements dating back to 2005 that I showed Niddy. Instead of typing it all out I have taken a pic and uploaded it below.
03/07/2012 - Sent missing prescribed terms letter.
19/07/2012 - Letter received including same Express application (signed by me) and unsigned CCA. They have highlighted some info this time around
20/07/2012 - Sent Final Response - Unenforceable letter.

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

I wonder if it is worth sending a request under CPUTR 2008 asking them if they really do have a signed true copy?

[Bricktop]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

I really think if any of these had an agreement that was golden then they would have sent it, maybe not at the 1st request but sent nontheless.

Looking at other diaries Amex seem to have a big problem admitting to consumers that they do not have agreements and try and fob us off with a load of bumpf

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

I really think if any of these had an agreement that was golden then they would have sent it, maybe not at the 1st request but sent nontheless.

Looking at other diaries Amex seem to have a big problem admitting to consumers that they do not have agreements and try and fob us off with a load of bumpf

Yeah, I think you're probably right. Part of me is curious as to how they would react to a CPUTR 2008 request though.

Could be worth it just for the comedy letter

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

They claim I would have got a copy of the terms when the card was issued lol!

"Hmmm. Yes Ms Crapquest. I always keep paperwork for 9 years. And why do you think I'm asking you for it if I've already got it!!"

[asm76]

Re: asm76's UE Diary

Yeah, that's what I thought. They say that I would have received a "COPY", so I'm not sure if they mean they sent them upon issue of the card, or they sent me a copy of what I had signed previously. Although why they would do that, I don't know. Usually there would be two sets of terms, one to sign and return and one to keep.

In any case, the terms they sent don't have my signature. The only thing that bears my signature is this Express Application, which refers to the "terms that form part of this agreement". Whether the unsigned terms they've sent are the ones in force at the time, I don't know. But, either way, I haven't seen my signature on any document that contains any prescribed terms. There is certainly nothing that links the express application to the terms they've sent me.

If they have put down in black and white that the terms were sent along with my card, they've already shot themselves squarely in both feet!