Elephant in the room

[still looking]

Re: Elephant in the room

blooming heck, that was a roller coaster ride reading this post.

Most of mine which have been UE have been backed up with a letter from either OC or its goon DCA, they simply say that until such time as they can find the agreement they cannot take enforcement steps to recoup the debt ( they go on to outline that enforcement under English Law is gaining a County Court Judgement. )But we can still pursue blah de blah

I for one, even though I am quite dumb on CCA law know that if they ever find the agreement its a whole different ball game. The only one I received with my signature on was a MBNA one and NIDDY kicked that into the long grass as it was only an application form. Arrow were dealing with that one and I sent a template letter T&C's but altered a few bits of it. Do it with all template letters.

As for a paper trail, No problem I agree, never ignore, even it is to reiterate that they are in breech of blah de blah and therefore no payment will be forthcoming.

Probably just cursed myself now, but it is three years down the line for me and still no CCA's from most of my debtors, don't care about me Credit file and the house has been repossessed so nothing to gain there.

Happy new year to you all, hope I don't need Pauls services after all that.

[Paul.]

Re: Elephant in the room

blooming heck, that was a roller coaster ride reading this post.

Most of mine which have been UE have been backed up with a letter from either OC or its goon DCA, they simply say that until such time as they can find the agreement they cannot take enforcement steps to recoup the debt ( they go on to outline that enforcement under English Law is gaining a County Court Judgement. )But we can still pursue blah de blah

I for one, even though I am quite dumb on CCA law know that if they ever find the agreement its a whole different ball game. The only one I received with my signature on was a MBNA one and NIDDY kicked that into the long grass as it was only an application form. Arrow were dealing with that one and I sent a template letter T&C's but altered a few bits of it. Do it with all template letters.

As for a paper trail, No problem I agree, never ignore, even it is to reiterate that they are in breech of blah de blah and therefore no payment will be forthcoming.

Probably just cursed myself now, but it is three years down the line for me and still no CCA's from most of my debtors, don't care about me Credit file and the house has been repossessed so nothing to gain there.

Happy new year to you all, hope I don't need Pauls services after all that.

well that is entirely your right to do that, i make no criticisims there.

However, it is the incorrect use of templates that has led to many respected judges to criticise these forums in general, as often the template is not edited / edited correctly and thus leaves the author looking like a prize titty.

Of course, there is also the point that templates dont fill all the gaps, look at Harrison, Mayhew, et al they replied to every single letter they recieved not with templates but sometimes with simple letters saying "Please refer to my letter dated..... could i have a reply so that we can move the matter forward"

In Mayhew especially it kicked Santander in the nutz, as they tried to suggest she was a debt avoider and ignored everything inline with the advice given on internet forums, and we were able to show the Judge what a twat the opponent had been in making such an allegation.

It costs nothing to prepare a letter yourself, only the price of a stamp, but to have that in your locker when you need to consider a Defence is vital.

But like i said, you can lead the horse to water, but you canne make it drink.

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Elephant in the room

However, it is the incorrect use of templates that has led to many respected judges to criticise these forums in general, as often the template is not edited / edited correctly and thus leaves the author looking like a prize titty.

I absolutely agree with this, because the use of templates will also then bite creditors in the behinds, as they themselves will often spout out templates in response to written correspondence, where the template will do nothing to address the matters raised.

I took Amex and Newmans to task over this approach (sending template letters in response to my complaints and consequently doing nothing to address the matters raised) which resulted in them refunding over £1000.

I'm not knocking template letters btw. I think they are a hugely useful resource to have in the toolkit, and they offer structure and an approach, which for a lot of people would be missing. However I think its essential that at the very least you should try to develop an understanding of what it is you are sending a creditor, and if necessary tweak it to suit your circumstances.

If you're unsure of tweaking any of Niddys templates then I'd just ask!

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: Elephant in the room

Template are useful in content but need to be adjusted to the personal situation, guidelines only?

[Paul.]

Re: Elephant in the room

Without question, the single most problem with the use of templates is the person using it.

Most dont understand the law, the issues, and their own case, and this is what causes the problem.

If i had a pound for each time ive seen a letter template asking for notice of assignment when its the original lender who still owns the account or lettering saying (ADJUST TO SUIT) still being on the template that was sent or even letters stating the creditor hasnt done something when he plainly has.

This is part of the problem. And is why i do not like templates.

[greymatter]

Re: Elephant in the room

Hi Paul
We must be aware that our templates are written to cover the situation without legally dropping a boll*ck.So if we are to alter a template which obviously would be needed in certain cases we should first check with you?niddy before altering,cos from what I have gathered regarding the law covering CCA1974 one wrong word could screw it up .Do you agree?
PS Happy New Year Paul

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Elephant in the room

Hi Paul
We must be aware that our templates are written to cover the situation without legally dropping a boll*ck.So if we are to alter a template which obviously would be needed in certain cases we should first check with you?niddy before altering,cos from what I have gathered regarding the law covering CCA1974 one wrong word could screw it up .Do you agree?
PS Happy New Year Paul

It's not a case of send to me/Paul to check - we're busy enough thanks!

As we always say, read the template prior to sending it, then read it again and alter anything that may need altering. Remember, the general CCA Request/SAR Request/Missing PT templates are standard so no need to change those. I think we're specifically referring to complex cases where templates are not ideally suited.

For example, at the very start of the CCA Request then sure, use the templates but by the time things get slightly more complex, you should be more familiar with the process and thus should be able to edit templates to suit your specific needs.

The wording used is suitable for the most common cases, it can be edited at any point, you won't mess things up - however, the one thing never to do is to admit liability in so much as try and use the term "alleged debt" as opposed to "my debt".

But in theory, if you're ever unsure then ask! The templates are purely there as a guidance tool, for those that are new to UE and need a simple process doing for them until they get to grips with things. To be fair, the templates serve the purpose they were intended but it's like Paul says, user ignorance is usually the main fault. I too have seen my own templates used against a user here because they'd not edited it and the template contained [Enter date here] etc etc.... that in my opinion is asking for trouble....

[greymatter]

Re: Elephant in the room

Ooops sorry Niddy,nearly got you an unwanted overload.
I should have stated 'if you are ever unsure then ask!
GM

[Paul.]

Re: Elephant in the room

if you dont understand the points your arguing, then you really do run the risk of, in essences, trying to argue before the judge that a greyhound is the same creature as a mountain goat!!

Judges rarely give Lips any room at all, and if you rock up running bonkers arguments then youre likely to get shafted even if you have an excellent case.

Its very easy to turn a good case into a pile of shit but you cannot polish a turd dont forget, once its a turd its a turd.

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Elephant in the room

you cannot polish a turd

So many people would have one believe, however ...

(That is a polished section of a dinosaur turd.)

[Paul.]

Re: Elephant in the room

So many people would have one believe, however ...

(That is a polished section of a dinosaur turd.)

only you!!!!! i give up

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Elephant in the room

only you!!!!!

[gravytrain]

Re: Elephant in the room

Perhaps sticking my neck out, but is not the problem here, of the forums own making to an extent.

Posters are advised to send their agreements to a secured area, (so no one gets to discuss)or learn why the agreement is at fault.

Posters are just being told to send a particular template.

I merely raise the point and in no way deny the valuable service this forum supplies.

[Riz]

Re: Elephant in the room

If you want to polish a non-fossilised one, apparently Lion turd is best......

[Paul.]

Re: Elephant in the room

Perhaps sticking my neck out, but is not the problem here, of the forums own making to an extent.

Posters are advised to send their agreements to a secured area, (so no one gets to discuss)or learn why the agreement is at fault.

Posters are just being told to send a particular template.

I merely raise the point and in no way deny the valuable service this forum supplies.

Well it may well be a good point there.

It would be good to explore every angle rather than just has there been non compliance with s78 and of course the opinion of others may well shed light on things too.

Lest not forget that there are many issues, such as

Is the agreement cancellable? were cancellation rights served and if not then that may render the agreement unenforceable forever and a day

Did the agreement that was signed contain the prescribed terms

Did the debtor sign an agreement?

Did the account get opened online? if so was it before 1st Jan 2005

Has there been any estoppal issues,

Has there been unfairness?

If one just looks at s78 one loses those points