Hamilton

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

Thanks Niddy, will do, think it was Paul who I spoke to before over LB, and said something about this, will have to check the posts again lol, thank you.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Hamilton

Right, so what happens from here then?

I will ask paul to come and check as with secured stuff, I am not sure how we stand - so best let the expert come and help.....

bear with us

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

And you'll be glad you did send it me cos it's bloody

Deffo a s.18 error, they've added the PPi in with the loan thus giving one total repayment at one APR - ermmm, sorry - ooops! We want one loan amount, then the prescribed terms for the loan ONLY. Then, underneath this we want a PPi amount with the Prescribed Terms for the PPi next to it.

Then it'd be enforceable. However, this is not.

Really?

WOW well well well.

I'm happy to hear that then, cheers Niddy, now why on earth did I not email this to you earlier .

Right, so what happens from here then?

Its in with the FOS at the mo and not sure if i can go the court route because its been with them since 2009, a long time, but yet again its been about that many parties involved and not exactly Endeavour as such.
Mags it will be the same for yours too!

Cheers Niddy.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Hamilton

see this for details - then check yours!

---> Multiple Agreements

Di & Mags - click that link ^^^

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

I will have a word with Tifosi on the calcs for you, who will be here at some point, but basically you should receive all you paid of the PPI to date, the interest to each payment made, a further 8% interest etc, but as said Tifosi will explain on the calcs in more detail for you.

You could post them up, the amount, the PPI, the loan terms and so on.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Hamilton

Cheers Mags.
Mine should help for now, the only difference will be the personal details and loan amounts etc...

Niddy I have just forwarded mine to the email above, if any probs opening it please let me know, cheers.

And you'll be glad you did send it me cos it's bloody

Deffo a s.18 error, they've added the PPi in with the loan thus giving one total repayment at one APR - ermmm, sorry - ooops! We want one loan amount, then the prescribed terms for the loan ONLY. Then, underneath this we want a PPi amount with the Prescribed Terms for the PPi next to it.

Then it'd be enforceable. However, this is not.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

No need to post it up, better to email me it if poss then you can leave it intact?

agreements@all-about-debt.co.uk

Thanks Niddy I will do later then, appreciated.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Hamilton

I will post mine up as well Niddy later if you don't mind, as it was the same year as Mags.
Cheers.

No need to post it up, better to email me it if poss then you can leave it intact?

agreements@all-about-debt.co.uk

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Hamilton

see this for details - then check yours!

---> Multiple Agreements

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

Have you got the actual agreement for this? I suspect that it'll have flaws....... In particular, s.18 related

I will post mine up as well Niddy later if you don't mind, as it was the same year as Mags.
Cheers.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Hamilton

Have you got the actual agreement for this? I suspect that it'll have flaws....... In particular, s.18 related

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

On going through the loan documents again, on the Credit Agreement which is Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, this is where the PPI was added (on the Endeavour personal Finance) credit agreement.

The broker application no PPI was added, to me this was then arranged by Endeavour later on into the loan.
So really in my opinion it would be that of Endeavour's liability arranging the loan with the Insurer Hamilton.

I understand going by read up's that you can take matters up with the lender if it was a regulated agreement, but in my case on the t&c's it states we used a credit broker on our free choice, and the lender will not take any liability.
(Now if our loan broker was a introducer and not that of a credit broker) to me the lender then will have liabilities, as a credit broker as stated earlier does not actually do the same roles or go so deeply such as mortgage/employers refs and so on.

What a mess this case is!

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

Further submission letter to the FOS.

Address



16 August 2011

Mr /The Ombudsman
Financial Ombudsman Service
South Quay Plaza
183 Marsh Wall
London
E14 9SR






Dear Mr M &/The Ombudsman dealing with this case.


Reference:
Click Finance/Endeavour Personal Finance (now HFC) Hamilton Insurance Company (Underwriter/Insurer).




I would like to make further points in relation of our case of the companies as above and in regards of the views/opinions given on this case.


The letter from you (Mr ******** *******) dated 02 June 2011, you stated that you were unable to investigate our complaint against Click Finance because of the Sale of the Payment Protection Insurance by Intermediaries such as Click has not been regulated since 14 January 2004.
Therefore our complaint against Click Finance is not within the Jurisdiction of your service, and you advised us you were then investigating the possibility of raising our concerns with the Insurance company who actually provided the cover under the policy (Underwriter), and you established that the underwriter of our policy was Hamilton Insurance Limited.


In order to conclude that Hamilton is responsible for the sale of the policy, you needed to be satisfied that Endeavour Personal Finance (EPF) was acting as an Agent when selling the policy.
You confirm that you’ve been unable to determine that Click was acting as an Agent of EPF when selling the policy, and as such you have been unable to conclude that there was a relationship between Click, Endeavour and Hamilton.


We had then found some details in some paperwork of HFC Bank (Endeavour was not HFC back then and only have been in recent years, although they were then under the same umbrella and had some dealings somewhere in the loan process)) at the time we taken out our loan in July 2004. We understood HFC was regulated back then unlike Endeavour Personal Finance or Click Finance, but they came into the process somewhere in the loan process.
We had forwarded you a copy of the paperwork of a HFC Customer Speaks form as we suspected they had involvement as well.


The application form was completed over the telephone by Click Finance and they sent this form to us to sign, No PPI added to the application form.
I had sent you a copy of this as “Concrete Evidence” as requested as evidence that Click Finance had completed the Application for a Secured loan.
Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) was however applied to EPF loan Agreement, this was later on in the loan process.
You will recall that I sent you a copy of 2 different signed loan agreements via EPF, one was dated before the completion on the Click loan application and the later agreement was in the final stages of the loan.
The first loan Agreement was the lender’s copy, and the later one signed and dated on 30 July 2004 was the customer copy, two different dates.


On researching, it seems that Endeavour Personal Finance (EPF) (Now HFC) used Loan sourcing “Introducers”, also classed as Brokers.
However, Loan mortgage packers/Introducers - more work is involved than that of a Standard loan credit broker.
Loan Introducers, they collect Employers References, Mortgage References and a Completion of a Building Society Questionnaire in short known as a (BSQ), this is for a second charge n the property, they also organise house valuations, credit searches.
No standard credit broker would undertake those activities as stated above.
Obviously commission will be paid by the lender on completion of the loan.


In regards of the above, we sent copies of all paperwork, such as the Employers details/Reference, The Mortgage statement/reference/charge, the House Valuation Report.
Click Finance paperwork, Endeavour Personal Finance paperwork, HFC details and a copy of the Endeavour (LOGO) EPF Payment Protection Policy details - which enclosed full details of the Underwriter/Insurer - Hamilton Insurance Limited.


The letter received from Mr Adjudicator dated 22 July 2011 also confirms it’s a complaint you cannot consider because you were unable to conclude that an Agency Relationship existed between Click Finance as the business that sold the policy and Endeavour Personal Finance that lent the funds.
Despite us sending in the copies of the paperwork for all of the above parties of who was who and what role they played.
The letter (a copy enclosed) from Endeavour Personal Finance, that was also forwarded to you by email states who is who and what part they came in to the process of the loan.


The letter dated 22 July 2011 also states that you have been in touch with HFC who used to be Endeavour Personal Finance, and they were unable to confirm or deny if Click were acting as a Mortgage Packager, and if Click were acting as a Mortgage Packager for EPF - who stated that even if Click were acting as a Mortgage Packager, this would not be evidence of an Agency Relationship.


In our view to this, no Standard Broker would collect the information as stated earlier in this letter, employers references, mortgage references and so on.
An agreement would have had to be signed up between broker and lender, this is known as an “Agency agreement” this would then form a relationship to from the lender to the broker (loan introducer). So this “is” called an “Agency Relationship” and is known to the English Law.


The paperwork provided to you is as stated of all parties involved in the process of the loan, and this case has been with the Financial Ombudsman Service since approximately 2009 or before.
It was suggested by the FOS to go the Underwriter/Insurer avenue, in our case Hamilton Insurance.
As Click Finance was not under jurisdiction when we taken out the loan and Click also dissolved in 2006.
The Insurers/Underwriters would also be involved, as this is also arranged by the lender (in our case).


I have also enclosed copies of examples of Loan Sourcing - Finance Transfer, please note this though is not a copies of Endeavour Personal Finance, but they “did” use loan introducers at the time we taken out the loan.


I am hoping still to get hold of a copy of a Copy of the Agency Agreement, and if I’m able to I will send to you as soon as possible before the timescale of 29 August 2011.






Yours sincerely

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

Received an email from my Adjudicator, he is sending a copy of the letter by hardcopy post as well, basically its just if i want to send in further info because it goes to the ombudsman - it may take some time because of large volumes (tell me something I don't know) lol

The thing here is, this complaint is meant to be against the underwriter - Hamilton, and not Click/Endeavour as such, and I already know due to be being rejected in 2008 we could not have this investigated by the FOS because Click were not regulated when we taken out the loan in 2004, so don't know where the insurer/underwriter details disappeared too lol.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton

Wishing you luck and got my fingers crossed DI

Aww thanks honey, I am going to need it. Xxx