Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

[Beefy1976]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Who was the surveyor's client? Was the surveyor instructed by the lender (if you have a mortgage) or did you instruct the surveyor direct to act for you?

If it was the lender's gig then the surveyor had a duty of care to the lender and not to you regardless of the fact that you may have paid for the cost of the survey. If you did pay for the lender's survey then you would have paid the money direct to the lender and not to the surveyor (if that helps to clarify the arrangement for you). If the survey was carried out on behalf of the lender then the surveyor has no obligation to discuss the contents with you. Most refuse point blank. Sometimes a lender will contact you after the surveyor's report is sent to them if it shows up any nasties. The lender will often say that it will advance the mortgage money subject to a retention of £XXX pounds which will be released once the work has been carried out within a specific timeframe (typically six months). This then becomes a condition of the loan.

If you instructed the surveyor direct to act for you then you may have a case of professional negligence against the surveyor if you can quantify any loss you have made (if that makes sense!) as a result of his errors or omissions. All surveyors have professional indemnity insurance for this very reason.

Plenty of lenders have sued surveyors (Countrywide mostly) for overvaluing property which left the lender with assets in negative equity. Ironically I've not yet seen borrowers suing surveyors for doing the same, precisely because the surveyor was not *advising* them (the hapless borrower) they were advising their client (the lender). If you want to be safe always commission a separate survey.

So the first thing to do is establish who was the surveyor's client.

Thanks for you reply!

It a the survey I instructed to act for me and I opted for a full structural one.

The survey I paid for on behalf of the mortgage company was a much more basic survey and was more of a checklist I think. The only comment on there referred to some condensation in the master bedroom and they valued it higher than my offer so all good on that front!

From what I can work out, the surveyor worked 'on behalf' of the company I instructed - I assume on some sort of sub contractor/part time basis. As for quantifying costs, unless Missy, I don't actually know if I have any problems. He referred to damp and gave a reading but the action advised was to take the walls in all the rooms back to brick to check. This was not something that anyone would allow before purchasing a house. I am not too worried as there are no signs of damp, the mortgage company surveyor didn't mention it and the survey by Barratt Oakleaf was essentially the same.

If I had found an actual issue like Missy I would be more inclined to go to war with them but I am not sure how far I would get if I did now.

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Hi PlanB. Thanks for posting.

It was Halifax who said we could have gone for another surveyor. . . .

The financial ombudsman wrote yesterday asking for further information and the cost of the repair to the roof which i am stating was missed on the report.

If your complaint to the Halifax is already being investigated by the FOS is there a reason for making a second complaint in preference to providing the information the adjudicator has already requested

I fear the surveyor will not acknowledge a complaint from you since you were not their client But if you want to attempt a separate complaint to them you need to first contact the company for their complaints procedure which is completely different from the route taken when complaining about a financial institution (such as the Halifax). The FOS doesn't deal with complaints against surveyors, this is handled normally (there are some exceptions) by the Ombudsman Services - Property. Check out whether the company you are seeking redress from is a member here:

http://www.ombudsman-services.org/memberlists/property/

and then if they are a member look at the Ombudsman Services - Property complaints' process which kicks in after you have received a deadlock letter (the same as a Final Response in FOS terms):

http://www.ombudsman-services.org/wh...-property.html

All surveyors who are on a lender's panel will be members of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors which is the industry benchmark. The RICS operate in the same way as the SRA when it comes to complaints against a member. They will investigate and sanction if appropriate, but not pay compensation. If you're after revenge then report them using this route:

http://www.rics.org/uk/regulation/co...nts-procedure/

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

It a the survey I instructed to act for me and I opted for a full structural one.

The survey I paid for on behalf of the mortgage company was a much more basic survey and was more of a checklist I think. The only comment on there referred to some condensation in the master bedroom and they valued it higher than my offer so all good on that front!

From what I can work out, the surveyor worked 'on behalf' of the company I instructed - I assume on some sort of sub contractor/part time basis. As for quantifying costs, unless Missy, I don't actually know if I have any problems. He referred to damp and gave a reading but the action advised was to take the walls in all the rooms back to brick to check. This was not something that anyone would allow before purchasing a house. I am not too worried as there are no signs of damp

You are in a very strong position since you instructed your surveyor direct They offered you a service, you paid them for the service, they carried out the service. Bingo you have a legal contract And with that contract comes a duty of care The fact that the company subcontracted (if they did) the work to a freelance bloke makes no difference. You contracted the company to provide a survey and you have every reason to expect that survey to be carried out by a competent surveyor. The buck stops with the company if the bloke got it wrong on the day

Keep that survey safe because if you do experience any problems further down the line (let's go with six years as a cut-off point for obvious reasons) and it's found that the roots of the problem should have been foreseen by a surveyor at the time of his inspection then your structural survey is your weapon for compensation.

Some problems don't show up for years such as Japanese Knotweed which is becoming a trending legal issue with fines of £5k or six months in prison for allowing it to spread A *competent* surveyor should point out any signs of this fashionable peril since it's been on the radar of most lenders since 2011 when specific legislation was introduced and mortgages have been declined as a result:

http://www.wiseknotweed.com/japanese...d-legislation/

[Beefy1976]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

You are in a very strong position since you instructed your surveyor direct They offered you a service, you paid them for the service, they carried out the service. Bingo you have a legal contract And with that contract comes a duty of care The fact that the company subcontracted (if they did) the work to a freelance bloke makes no difference. You contracted the company to provide a survey and you have every reason to expect that survey to be carried out by a competent surveyor. The buck stops with the company if the bloke got it wrong on the day

Keep that survey safe because if you do experience any problems further down the line (let's go with six years as a cut-off point for obvious reasons) and it's found that the roots of the problem should have been foreseen by a surveyor at the time of his inspection then your structural survey is your weapon for compensation.

Some problems don't show up for years such as Japanese Knotweed which is becoming a trending legal issue with fines of £5k or six months in prison for allowing it to spread A *competent* surveyor should point out any signs of this fashionable peril since it's been on the radar of most lenders since 2011 when specific legislation was introduced and mortgages have been declined as a result:

http://www.wiseknotweed.com/japanese...d-legislation/

Thanks :-)

I have it filed for future reference as the chances are I will sell the house within 6 years.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Missy - I've only read post 1 fully so apologies if you've answered before but can you clarify - when you got the survey did you pay HBOS for it or did you pay them/3rd party direct?

Likewise, was the survey offered as part of a packaged deal? If so to any of the above you can complain to the FOS regards HBOS. If you get stuck speak to RICS about the member surveyor

[diddlydee]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

I have just briefly glanced across this thread, so this may already have been said, so sorry if it has. Normally, when you get a mortgage through any mainstream lender they will give you options on the type of survey carried out. The cheapest option (and the option taken by a vast majority) is a simple valuation report. It really is designed for the benefit of the lender and nothing more - even though the lender will charge you the fee for the privilege. In all honesty, the surveyor turns up with a pen, paper and damp meter, has a quick look round and, taking into account similar properties, places a value on it. If he notices any trees close by, any damp patches, a flat felt roof, some missing tiles on the roof, or some serious looking cracks, he will recommend to the lender that further investigations be carried out before issuance of a mortgage - this could be conditional on any mortgage offer; all for the benefit of the lender (ie. their security).

As stated, a vast majority of buyers go with this type of report, whereas in reality they really should get a more in-depth survey done for their own benefit but they rarely do as most buyers sadly think that the expense isn't worth it and they are incredibly expensive.

Have you had sight of a copy of the surveyors report? Does it mention the roof at all? What exactly is wrong with the roof? Should the surveyor have seen the problems, ie. was he negligent in his duties?

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

we only realised their were problems with the roof after we had the keys and got in there

First obvious question (at this stage): exactly what is wrong with the roof and what will it cost to put right? I'm no Sarah Beeny but I have been in the property business for 30+ years. I understand roof stuff.

Second question: who says there is a problem with your roof? Have you had another survey carried out by a member of the RICS? Or is this self-diagnosis? Or a *view* from a building contractor seeking lucrative work (I'm playing devil's advocate here).

Next question (dependant on your answer to the first question): Did your solicitor provide you with a full Property Questionnaire completed by the vendor of your property (he should have) at the conveyancing stage which would have put the legal duty on the vendor/seller to disclose any defects with the property? Did it say (in so many words) that the property was *problem free*? Or was your solicitor negligent? Or was the vendor legally liable for withholding negative information or guilty of non disclosure?

What I'm trying to say is that any structural (not cosmetic) defect is open to discussion in legal terms. I would hate to raise your expectations that the lender Halifax (or their surveyor not your surveyor as admitted) got it wrong when that may not be the case. Perhaps you should be aiming at a different target?

More information please

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Well, according to the link you sent me..... the roof would be covered in any of the inspection types offered, which should have resulted in some comments re. what they found, so that you could make an informed decision about what to do next.

Please post a draft of what you want to say on here and I will tweak it.... your complaint needs to go to both Halifax (who requested the survey) and the company who carried out the survey; in your link.

If Halifax gave you a mortgage, then you would be on their system..... so their reply is rubbish, unless they gave you the house for free

Yes, the roof should have been inspected although no comments were made. I need to reply to FOS by 12th so will type up my reply for you to review if you can.

If your complaint to the Halifax is already being investigated by the FOS is there a reason for making a second complaint in preference to providing the information the adjudicator has already requested

I fear the surveyor will not acknowledge a complaint from you since you were not their client But if you want to attempt a separate complaint to them you need to first contact the company for their complaints procedure which is completely different from the route taken when complaining about a financial institution (such as the Halifax). The FOS doesn't deal with complaints against surveyors, this is handled normally (there are some exceptions) by the Ombudsman Services - Property. Check out whether the company you are seeking redress from is a member here:

http://www.ombudsman-services.org/memberlists/property/

and then if they are a member look at the Ombudsman Services - Property complaints' process which kicks in after you have received a deadlock letter (the same as a Final Response in FOS terms):

http://www.ombudsman-services.org/wh...-property.html

All surveyors who are on a lender's panel will be members of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors which is the industry benchmark. The RICS operate in the same way as the SRA when it comes to complaints against a member. They will investigate and sanction if appropriate, but not pay compensation. If you're after revenge then report them using this route:

http://www.rics.org/uk/regulation/co...nts-procedure/

I am not sure if i have explained all this very well but i am not sure where the second complaint bit comes from. I wrote to Halifax initially and when they washed their hands of it went to FOS.
On re-reading the email from FOS; the adjudicator is only asking for a copy of the roof repairs and claryfying they understand the position correctly. If its easier i can PM you the email with my anticipated reply later?
Thanks for the links - i will take a look at these.

Missy - I've only read post 1 fully so apologies if you've answered before but can you clarify - when you got the survey did you pay HBOS for it or did you pay them/3rd party direct?

Likewise, was the survey offered as part of a packaged deal? If so to any of the above you can complain to the FOS regards HBOS. If you get stuck speak to RICS about the member surveyor

Yes mate - we paid HBOS directly and they appointed the "property experts".
Not sure if it would be classed as a deal per se. Halifax offered us a mortgage subject to survey which we needed to pay for.

First obvious question (at this stage): exactly what is wrong with the roof and what will it cost to put right? I'm no Sarah Beeny but I have been in the property business for 30+ years. I understand roof stuff.

Second question: who says there is a problem with your roof? Have you had another survey carried out by a member of the RICS? Or is this self-diagnosis? Or a *view* from a building contractor seeking lucrative work (I'm playing devil's advocate here).

Next question (dependant on your answer to the first question): Did your solicitor provide you with a full Property Questionnaire completed by the vendor of your property (he should have) at the conveyancing stage which would have put the legal duty on the vendor/seller to disclose any defects with the property? Did it say (in so many words) that the property was *problem free*? Or was your solicitor negligent? Or was the vendor legally liable for withholding negative information or guilty of non disclosure?

What I'm trying to say is that any structural (not cosmetic) defect is open to discussion in legal terms. I would hate to raise your expectations that the lender Halifax (or their surveyor not your surveyor as admitted) got it wrong when that may not be the case. Perhaps you should be aiming at a different target?

More information please

A1: When we started moving our stuff in we discovered one of the bedroom ceilings was about to cave in. This was due to water damage above. I popped in the loft and could see water dripping down the side of the chimney stack. I got a few roofers (via recommended tradesmen) to look:
First one said its disgusting that they have let you buy this with a roof like this. I would suggest you get them back here - you can patch it but you need a whole roof really.
Other two said the "roof" is OK considering the house is 50+ years old; the bad water leak from the stack is because the lead around the chimney is knackered and needs replacing.
I got one of the roofers who specialises in lead work to make new lead up around the stack which also required some tiles and felt. With the ceiling repair (which i did) this cost just under £1000

A2: Please see above

A3: This is a good point and not one i have thought/seen mentioned until now. I will dig out the paperwork and come back to you.

Sure, i understand its open to discussion. The roofers that looked at it said that if the report specified an "inspection of the roof voids" then *if* someone did enter the property - they should have noticed there were problems a) from the loft opening - the chimney stack was stuffed with insulation b) the bedroom ceiling was reading to cave in.

Many thanks to everyone taking the time to read and post on this. Appreciated

[PriorityOne]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Missy..... it's important to know whether the valuation report came with any recommendations or not because as far as I can make out, the FOS are only interested in how much the roof repairs have cost. If this is in relation to the fact that any survey the company carried out should have included the roof (as your link states), then this does make investigative sense; albeit wishy washy sense.

Have the FOS asked for any paperwork confirming that the survey should have included the roof? Have they asked if recommendations were made following the report? Have they asked for Halifax's response to your complaint?

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Hello Missy, thanks for that clarification. A couple more questions from me to help you get to the bottom of this. I have a pretty good track record for winning my cases with the FOS (7 won only 1 lost) but it takes perseverance and you have to point out the specifics to the adjudicator since most miss the obvious

I'm guessing you weren't present at the surveyor's inspection so have no knowledge of whether the roof was inspected or not. Your complaint is that despite the inspection the surveyor didn't include any roof defects in their report to the Halifax. Have you actually seen the report from the surveyor to the Halifax (they're not obliged to send you this although a SAR could reveal it)? Or are you making your judgment of the situation based on a letter from the Halifax (i.e. a third party) summarizing the report? Or are you reacting to what was written (or not!) in the mortgage offer letter? Can you post up (or PM me) any of these documents since it's hard to comment blind on their content. There may be something in the small print which could help you. There may be exactly the opposite like a disclaimer.

Your description of the roof problem sounds like a flashing (lead) issue which is not a huge job (as you will have discovered) and I'm glad you ignored the first contractor who tried to sell you a whole new roof Did you get a written estimate for the roof job detailing the work which needed to be carried out to remedy the situation? If not can you get a receipt with that info on it. The reason is you need to prove that the work was a necessary/essential repair to safeguard the fabric of the building, and not an upgrade to the property known as *betterment* which is a personal choice thing. If the surveyor was asked to provide the lender with a report for valuation purposes only he may have taken the view that the defect didn't impact on the overall value of the house. However I would have expected him to have noted it since if the repairs weren't carried out they could have caused even greater damage in the long term.

The issue of the bedroom ceiling is a tricky one. You didn't notice any problems with it when you viewed the property (or did you?) so it may not have been obvious to the naked eye. I doubt it would have any influence on the value (i.e. price) of the property which would have been assessed on the age of the house taking into consideration that it was a repossession which had been empty for some time (was it empty for a while?). It's too late to tell you this now, but I would have been inclined to have left it a few weeks then contacted the buildings insurer with a claim for water damage following a storm or similar After all from what you say it was caused by water coming through the roof.

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Missy..... it's important to know whether the valuation report came with any recommendations or not because as far as I can make out, the FOS are only interested in how much the roof repairs have cost. If this is in relation to the fact that any survey the company carried out should have included the roof (as your link states), then this does make investigative sense; albeit wishy washy sense.

No. The only comments were that the property would benefit (i forget the exact wording) from some general upgrading. If its easier and you have the time i can scan the document to you later?

Have the FOS asked for any paperwork confirming that the survey should have included the roof? Have they asked if recommendations were made following the report? Have they asked for Halifax's response to your complaint?

FOS have the photo's i took of the leaking chimney, bedroom ceiling, screen shots of the surveyors website with what is checked on the type of survey (before and after complaint - these are different!) and all correspondance from myself and Halifax. It may be easier if i PM you the email from the FOS to help clarify their position with it. As i mentioned earlier on in the thread: i think where this may fall down is i don't have anything from the surveyors/Halifax with a breakdown of what would be checked. My only bit of hope from this is the link from the website.

thanks for your time on this.
Missy

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Please post a draft of what you want to say on here and I will tweak it.... your complaint needs to go to both Halifax (who requested the survey) and the company who carried out the survey; in your link.

Sorry Missy, my reference to a second complaint came from my misunderstanding of post # 15 which I read to say that you should send a letter to the Halifax and to the surveyor not send a reply to the FOS adjudicator. My mistake

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Missy, regards your PM mate. If you want to trade emails with a user then that's fine by us but be careful. All mods are automatically safe as are some of the more known users. Just be careful that's all we ask

If planB needs to see something, you'll be safe.

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Hello Missy, thanks for that clarification. A couple more questions from me to help you get to the bottom of this. I have a pretty good track record for winning my cases with the FOS (7 won only 1 lost) but it takes perseverance and you have to point out the specifics to the adjudicator since most miss the obvious

I'm guessing you weren't present at the surveyor's inspection so have no knowledge of whether the roof was inspected or not. Your complaint is that despite the inspection the surveyor didn't include any roof defects in their report to the Halifax. Have you actually seen the report from the surveyor to the Halifax (they're not obliged to send you this although a SAR could reveal it)? Or are you making your judgment of the situation based on a letter from the Halifax (i.e. a third party) summarizing the report? Or are you reacting to what was written (or not!) in the mortgage offer letter? Can you post up (or PM me) any of these documents since it's hard to comment blind on their content. There may be something in the small print which could help you. There may be exactly the opposite like a disclaimer.


Your description of the roof problem sounds like a flashing (lead) issue which is not a huge job (as you will have discovered) and I'm glad you ignored the first contractor who tried to sell you a whole new roof Did you get a written estimate for the roof job detailing the work which needed to be carried out to remedy the situation? If not can you get a receipt with that info on it. The reason is you need to prove that the work was a necessary/essential repair to safeguard the fabric of the building, and not an upgrade to the property known as *betterment* which is a personal choice thing. If the surveyor was asked to provide the lender with a report for valuation purposes only he may have taken the view that the defect didn't impact on the overall value of the house. However I would have expected him to have noted it since if the repairs weren't carried out they could have caused even greater damage in the long term.

The issue of the bedroom ceiling is a tricky one. You didn't notice any problems with it when you viewed the property (or did you?) so it may not have been obvious to the naked eye. I doubt it would have any influence on the value (i.e. price) of the property which would have been assessed on the age of the house taking into consideration that it was a repossession which had been empty for some time (was it empty for a while?). It's too late to tell you this now, but I would have been inclined to have left it a few weeks then contacted the buildings insurer with a claim for water damage following a storm or similar After all from what you say it was caused by water coming through the roof.

Good track history then!

I wasn't present at the surveyors inspection (and i have serious doubts as to wether he got out of the car!)

Halifax have sent me the report they allegidly receive from the surveyor, yes. It contains very basic information. I don't have this on me although can scan and send it to you tomorrow morning if you don't mind (can you PM me you email address as i don't believe you can attach over PM. If you would rather not, i can upload somewhere and send you the link via PM).

You are correct in saying i am reacting to the lack of information in the report. My point being the checklist stated an inspection of the roof voids is carried out. If it was, they should have noted that there was evidence of water around the chimney stack, so bad it caused the ceiling in a bedroom to sag. I appreciate they could say this happened after the survey (debatable!) although they should have spotted the insulation stuffed around the stack (viewable from the loft opening) in an attempt to stop water leaking through.
It required renewing immediately to prevent further damage to the property and not an upgrade, or betterment of any discription.
You make a valid point about the damage they may have spotted not making a difference to the price of the property - perhaps this is exactly the case, although (and i am sorry to keep harping on about it!) if the checklist stated an inspection of the voids - i expect this to have taken place.
I agree the ceiling is a tricky one, although i feel relevant to illustate the amount of water leaking from the stack to cause the amount of damage it did to the ceiling.

Many thanks for your help on this.

Missy

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

FOS have the photo's i took of the leaking chimney, bedroom ceiling, screen shots of the surveyors website with what is checked on the type of survey (before and after complaint - these are different!) and all correspondance from myself and Halifax. It may be easier if i PM you the email from the FOS to help clarify their position with it. As i mentioned earlier on in the thread: i think where this may fall down is i don't have anything from the surveyors/Halifax with a breakdown of what would be checked. My only bit of hope from this is the link from the website

Does this mean that the link to the website which you sent to P1 by PM is the current website (obviously unless you have a cached copy of the old one) and not the website which was up and running at the time the surveyor was instructed? This matters because advice can't be accurately given based on evidence (the current different website) which wasn't there at the time of the crime. If you follow me.