Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Does this mean that the link to the website which you sent to P1 by PM is the current website (obviously unless you have a cached copy of the old one) and not the website which was up and running at the time the surveyor was instructed? This matters because advice can't be accurately given based on evidence (the current different website) which wasn't there at the time of the crime. If you follow me.

Yes, it is the current website. The "site" at the time of survey is exactly the same, other than the changes they made in the roof voids box!

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

(obviously unless you have a cached copy of the old one)

Look at you - I remember when you struggled to paste a link and now you can copy a site cache

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Halifax have sent me the report they allegidly receive from the surveyor, yes. It contains very basic information. I don't have this on me although can scan and send it to you tomorrow morning if you don't mind (can you PM me you email address as i don't believe you can attach over PM. If you would rather not, i can upload somewhere and send you the link via PM).

You are correct in saying i am reacting to the lack of information in the report. My point being the checklist stated an inspection of the roof voids is carried out. If it was, they should have noted that there was evidence of water around the chimney stack, so bad it caused the ceiling in a bedroom to sag. I appreciate they could say this happened after the survey (debatable!) although they should have spotted the insulation stuffed around the stack (viewable from the loft opening) in an attempt to stop water leaking through.

You make a valid point about the damage they may have spotted not making a difference to the price of the property - perhaps this is exactly the case, although (and i am sorry to keep harping on about it!) if the checklist stated an inspection of the voids - i expect this to have taken place.

I'm happy to PM you an email address - I have one dedicated to PlanB stuff so it's not personal at all. But I would think the site policy is not to give help by PM/email unless it's top secret because the whole point of a forum is to share information with all members (and guests) rather than give one2one bespoke help. I'm sure a lot of members on here will have experience of roof leaks! If you can post the report on your thread that would be better. It's hardly a controversial document neither is the link to a website which is already in the public domain so can you post that link on the thread too, albeit it's possibly not relevant if it contains information which wasn't there when this fiasco was taking place.

I agree with you that if the checklist said the roof would be inspected then you would think that there would be little point in a surveyor inspecting it if he didn't note what he saw! You have no evidence that the surveyor didn't inspect the roof void. If this went to court the surveyor would have to provide a witness statement to confirm or deny this. I tend to think that a complaint to the FOS is judged as if it were in court. They look at both sides of the story and then make an impartial (in theory) decision based on the evidence. The only bonus of the FOS is they take the view of "what is reasonable for the consumer to have expected" from a situation. I think that is your strongest argument so far, never mind the paperwork

How much time passed between the survey and completion of the purchase? I only ask because you hinted that the damage may (I doubt) have happened after the surveyor had been.

And finally how much did you pay for the survey because in the very least you should be asking for your money back. That's something you should ask the FOS to consider as part of any resolution

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Look at you - I remember when you struggled to paste a link and now you can copy a site cache

I was bluffing

I have absolutely no idea how to copy a site cache, but I do know how to fix roofs if that's any help

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Yes, it is the current website. The "site" at the time of survey is exactly the same, other than the changes they made in the roof voids box!

What were the changes made to the roof voids box between the website at the time you booked your survey and the current site (which is probably not relevant as evidence for your complaint to the FOS)? Did you view the original website before or after you paid for the survey? What is the date on the screenshot of the website which you sent to the FOS? Was this screenshot taken after you had completed on the purchase and moved in to find a soggy ceiling?

Sorry for so many questions but I'm only trying to see what new/old stuff you can come up with to support your FOS investigation. It's one thing to send HBOS a stiff complaint letter, but another to back it up with evidence to the FOS.

[PriorityOne]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Sorry Missy, my reference to a second complaint came from my misunderstanding of post # 15 which I read to say that you should send a letter to the Halifax and to the surveyor not send a reply to the FOS adjudicator. My mistake

Personally, that's the way I would have gone with this...... as the FOS tend to be waste of space in most cases. My hunch is that the FOS will accept the "general upgrading" recommendation in the report as advice that wasn't taken at the time. If Missy plans take this through the courts at some stage, he'll need as much as possible to try and pin Halifax/the surveying company down pre-court and any FOS decision in their favour won't help.

Just my opinion....

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Personally, that's the way I would have gone with this...... as the FOS tend to be waste of space in most cases. My hunch is that the FOS will accept the "general upgrading" recommendation in the report as advice that wasn't taken at the time. If Missy plans take this through the courts at some stage, he'll need as much as possible to try and pin Halifax/the surveying company down pre-court and any FOS decision in their favour won't help.

Just my opinion....

My only concern with that approach is the Halifax may reject any further communication from Missy on this subject because they have already issued a *Final Response* to his complaint. Won't they simply re-direct him to the FOS unless he withdraws his complaint to the FOS?

Although Missy hasn't indicated any intention of taking this to court, if he did go down that route then he would have to sue the Halifax (because he was 'doing business' with them not the surveyor), and if the surveyor is deemed to have been negligent (by the Halifax since they were the surveyor's client not Missy), then the Halifax (as Defendant) would include the surveyor in the proceedings as a Part 20 Defendant (I think that's what they are called). In other words Missy sues the lender who in turn sues the surveyor (for getting it wrong) all in the same proceedings.

http://uk.practicallaw.com/9-107-6966?sd=plc

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

I'm happy to PM you an email address - I have one dedicated to PlanB stuff so it's not personal at all. But I would think the site policy is not to give help by PM/email unless it's top secret because the whole point of a forum is to share information with all members (and guests) rather than give one2one bespoke help. I'm sure a lot of members on here will have experience of roof leaks! If you can post the report on your thread that would be better. It's hardly a controversial document neither is the link to a website which is already in the public domain so can you post that link on the thread too, albeit it's possibly not relevant if it contains information which wasn't there when this fiasco was taking place.

No, thats fine - i will post. As you say, the forum is for the benefit of all its members.

I agree with you that if the checklist said the roof would be inspected then you would think that there would be little point in a surveyor inspecting it if he didn't note what he saw! You have no evidence that the surveyor didn't inspect the roof void. If this went to court the surveyor would have to provide a witness statement to confirm or deny this. I tend to think that a complaint to the FOS is judged as if it were in court. They look at both sides of the story and then make an impartial (in theory) decision based on the evidence. The only bonus of the FOS is they take the view of "what is reasonable for the consumer to have expected" from a situation. I think that is your strongest argument so far, never mind the paperwork

How much time passed between the survey and completion of the purchase? I only ask because you hinted that the damage may (I doubt) have happened after the surveyor had been.

And finally how much did you pay for the survey because in the very least you should be asking for your money back. That's something you should ask the FOS to consider as part of any resolution

Agreed
There was little time difference in survey and completion - from memory, a week or two although i will check this.

I believe the car parked outside for five minutes, sorry i meant survey (!) was £350 although will doubl check. In your experience will i be lucky to get a refund of the survey/compensated on the roof repair?

Thanks for all your input!

What were the changes made to the roof voids box between the website at the time you booked your survey and the current site (which is probably not relevant as evidence for your complaint to the FOS)? Did you view the original website before or after you paid for the survey? What is the date on the screenshot of the website which you sent to the FOS? Was this screenshot taken after you had completed on the purchase and moved in to find a soggy ceiling?

Sorry for so many questions but I'm only trying to see what new/old stuff you can come up with to support your FOS investigation. It's one thing to send HBOS a stiff complaint letter, but another to back it up with evidence to the FOS.

Thanks for asking them! Its not allowing me to upload the attached screenshots at the moment (200KB each) - i will check another area, but not sure if it has the clock in the corner of the screen sadly. I thought it would be enought that i have a screen of the differences and they could always argue the clock on my desktop could be out.

Personally, that's the way I would have gone with this...... as the FOS tend to be waste of space in most cases. My hunch is that the FOS will accept the "general upgrading" recommendation in the report as advice that wasn't taken at the time. If Missy plans take this through the courts at some stage, he'll need as much as possible to try and pin Halifax/the surveying company down pre-court and any FOS decision in their favour won't help.

Just my opinion....

I just followed my nose on this. I did state in my first post i had contacted (after Halifax) Trading Standards, FSA and OFT, all to no avail. The reason i have never contacted the surveyors directly is because i didn't engage with them and have never received anything from them.

[PriorityOne]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

My only concern with that approach is the Halifax may reject any further communication from Missy on this subject because they have already issued a *Final Response* to his complaint. Won't they simply re-direct him to the FOS unless he withdraws his complaint to the FOS?

A "Final Response" means diddly squat if you're persistent.... but implies that Halifax may be reluctant to put something in writing in case Missy takes it further....

I just followed my nose on this. I did state in my first post i had contacted (after Halifax) Trading Standards, FSA and OFT, all to no avail. The reason i have never contacted the surveyors directly is because i didn't engage with them and have never received anything from them.

Yep.... "official" bodies..... says it all.

I hope the FOS do investigate this properly but if not, the only option available to you (in my opinion) would be to consider court action. If you're going to go down that route though, you'll need to have your ducks in order.

If I can help in any other way, please let me know. :-)

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

I hope the FOS do investigate this properly but if not, the only option available to you (in my opinion) would be to consider court action. If you're going to go down that route though, you'll need to have your ducks in order.

If I can help in any other way, please let me know. :-)

Me too P1!
I'll get all the paperwork in order tonight, scan tomorrow morning with view to uploading it and my reply tomorrow if you will be around?

Thanks
Missy

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

I believe the car parked outside for five minutes, sorry i meant survey (!) was £350 although will doubl check. In your experience will i be lucky to get a refund of the survey/compensated on the roof repair? .

I don't have a crystal ball to answer that question, but if you haven't asked for a refund of the £350 survey fee you can't expect the FOS to automatically recommend it as a solution to your problem. Whenever you make a complaint it helps to state what resolution you are seeking. That way the adjudicator will focus on whether you deserve your wish to be granted. It's the same as the county court process - the DJ can't (normally) order a Defendant to pay something unless the Claimant has asked for it in their POC.

It may be more straightforward for the FOS to uphold a complaint against the Halifax of *poor service levels* (and so refund your payment) when faced with a rubbish report and bad communication over the contents. Did anyone from the Halifax tell you what the report meant by "general upgrading" needed (if that was that the exact phrase). This approach could avoid the problem of asking the FOS to decide whether the surveyor was professionally negligent especially if you haven't made a specific complaint to the FOS about the surveyor (by name) only Halifax's 'lack of control' of the situation.

That doesn't mean the FOS can ignore your complaint that it's cost you £1,000 to remedy a defect with the property which went unrecorded (unless referred to in general terms which will require sight of the report). You're arguing that the expense of putting that right has only occurred because of the omissions in the rubbish report provided to you by the Halifax. The FOS will be looking at what difference would it have made if you had been told about the roof problems at the time. Would you have pulled out of the purchase (unlikely?) or would you have gone back to the seller and asked for a reduction in the agreed price to cover the cost of the remedial works (that's the traditional path). At that point most seller's agree to a 50/50 split on the costs to prevent the sale falling through. But this was a repossession you were buying from a bank so they may have adopted a take-it-or-leave-it attitude.

I think you should fight for both (survey refund and roof repairs). I'm less confident that you have an argument over the soggy ceiling but go for it anyway.

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Hi.
Last night i made time to sit down and go through all the paperwork on the sale and its now clear what has happened.
I had an email from the mortgage adviser with a link to the surveyors website with a comparison of the different type of surveys and hence my screen captures of their checklist at the time of sale and after complaint, although the letter from Halifax does not match this.
As already pointed out, the Halifax letter is merely a valuation. Gutted. Below is the recent request from the FOS; would it be best just to reply with what the are asking (in the hope something is offered), or pursue the mortgage company? The problem with this is although i have the email from the advisor; its just a link and he doesn't actually say words to the effect "this is what you are getting". Looking at all the emails from him lots of them aren't complete because they are often a follow up to a telephone call - as in this case.

Thanks for everyone who has contributed, and i hope you don't think i have been wasting anyone's time. At the time of the sale, i was changing jobs, had belonging in different places and was outside of the country for the last part too so it was all a bit mental.

Missy
********************

Dear Missy

Many thanks for speaking with me briefly on the phone earlier.

I called you because your complaint has been passed to me now to consider in my role as an adjudicator. I've provided some brief information below on what will happen next. (I understand you're on holiday so please give me a call back when you return if you want to talk about your complaint).

my role and the process

As an adjudicator, I will review all the evidence and then give you my opinion, based on what I consider to be fair and reasonable. If I do find that the business has done something wrong then I can recommend it to put it right. But on the other hand, my opinion may be that I don't think it has made an error. In any case, I will explain how I have reached my opinion once I have finished investigating the information.

Once I've issued my opinion, if either you or Halifax disagree with my opinion, then the next step would be to ask an ombudsman to review the complaint. Most complaints are resolved at adjudication stage but the ombudsman's role is different in that this would be the final stage of our complaints handling process as they issue a final decision.

your complaint and an idea of how I will approach it

I will tell you and the business what I think as soon as possible.

In summary, I understand that when you moved into your new property you ralised there was considerable damage to the ceiling and problems with the chimney area. You feel the valuer should have noted the defects, as per the surveyors website.

To give me a better understanding of the complaint, please could you provide me with the following information:


Please provide details including costs for the repair work?


Please let me know if you don't think you can respond by 12 August 2013.

My approach will involve looking at whether the particular type of survey you chose should have recorded the defect.

For instance, in a basic valuation, I would only expect to see a fairly basic inspection to be carried out on the property. The purpose of it being to help the lender to decide what, if any, amount it's prepared to lend against it. I wouldn't expect a detailed inspection.

At this stage, I've received Bank of Scotland's paperwork as well as yours so I need to review all of this. Once I've got the information from you, I should have everything I need to reach an assessment.

Please also let me know if there is anything else I can do to help or if you have questions. If you do get in touch, please use the reference xxxxxx/xxx/xx

Yours sincerely


Adjudicator
Financial Ombudsman Service

[IF]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Hope you don't mind Missy but I've removed the Ref No, it may have been false but best to be safe

[SA Gold]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

Hope you don't mind Missy but I've removed the Ref No, it may have been false but best to be safe

Not at all IF - thanks for spotting it!

[PlanB]

Re: Getting no-where with Halifax mortgage complaint

The Adjudicator's letter asks you to let her know if you can't respond by 12th August (Monday). Why not send her an email telling her you need a few more days to go through your paperwork. Suggest Friday 16th instead unless you feel ready to respond by Monday. This is not court proceedings where you have to comply with dates in a court order.

Her email indicates that she's not likely to uphold your complaint because she would only expect a basic valuation to provide a fairly basic inspection to be carried out on the property. Although this is a negative viewpoint it is also helpful because it tells you how she's thinking. Your mission now is to convince her why your expectations were different from hers. She's inviting you to do this.

From what you say the broker directed you to the surveyor's website so you could select which of the three survey options you wanted to have carried out. The FOS may say that on the basis of this upfront information having been offered, you will have made an informed choice and the level of survey was not foisted on you by the Halifax. The Halifax subsequently went ahead with a basic valuation so presumably you did make the decision on which survey would go ahead at some point not them.

You're arguing that the website (as it appeared at the time which none of us have seen) states that the roof would be inspected but did it say to what degree (internal/external/from the ground with binoculars only)? You say since then the survey company has amended their website to say something different. You've sent me (and P1) a link to the current website which I'm posting here since I can't see a problem with that, hopefully others will take a look and have something to add to your thread:

http://www.colleys.co.uk/customer/services/compare/

It provides (now but did it then?) an extremely good 'tick' list of what you can expect. Under the Valuation service there are big red crosses against most things. It's terribly clear that the roof would not have an internal inspection, and the roof coverings (external stuff) would only be "inspected from ground floor level". I don't know the layout of your property but it's unlikely the flashings (lead) would have been clearly visible from ground floor level. Sadly there's also a big red cross against any inspection of the roof void. That was never going to happen on this survey option (unless the older website said different). There's also a big red cross against the advice on the urgency of repairs, and another big red cross against any discussion with a surveyor, which means he didn't have to discuss the report with you afterwards. Which is probably why they haven't.

Finally it says that the internal inspection will only be "visual" so if the ceiling had obvious water stains then it could be argued that they should have been noted, but you didn't notice any water stains when you viewed the property did you? The surveyor wasn't obliged to get out a damp meter and check for a soggy ceiling if it wasn't visibly apparent to him. Regrettably there is also a big red cross against the box for detailed inspection.

Having said all that only you have got a screenshot of the website page from the day you made your choice which may be entirely different so post that up if you can in case it supports your complaint.

Also post up the report/letter sent to you by the Halifax in case there is anything in there which led you believe that they (Halifax) were giving the property a clean bill of health regardless of the surveyor's input