Kitchen sink problem

[PlanB]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

The last thing I want is a claim from them so I'm thinking it would be best to send them the balance less the cost of fitting the replacement.

If they still want to pursue me for the £100, it will cost them that much to start a claim!

Just as a matter of interest, if a claim is issued, could my photographs be used as proof, when I submit an initial defence or would they have to be used at a later stage?

If it's going to cost £100 to fix the problem then being objective (I try ) I'm not sure a DJ would see any justification in you withholding more than that amount.

You could argue damages for stress and inconvenience, but I've not known a kitchen installation to be stress free. If it was an oven or hob which wasn't working you could maybe claim the cost of takeaway meals etc.

We all know that once you've paid the full amount they won't come back. But on the other hand keeping £400 of the money owed to them which is not in dispute is obviously to hold them to ransom (that's what I'd do) but a DJ may not see it that way, so you could still end up with a CCJ (unless settled at Mediation).

If this went to court I would expect the DJ to issue Directions for an Independent Expert to guide him on the 'technical' side of things which could cost you (if you lose) a lot more than £100.

So my pragmatic view is why not pay them the £400 owed as per the invoice (so they've not got that fact as a disputed sum if they decide to issue a claim).

If it then costs you £100 to get closure on the kitchen sink drama, you won't be out of pocket.

A claim of up to £500 only costs £35 to issue using MCOL so they may be tempted if they feel strongly about the £400. And it's only £25 to issue a summons for a £100 claim.

Di

[PlanB]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

It's not unreasonable to expect a response, one way or the other, considering they have sent me a letter before action.

If you didn't give them a deadline to respond to your response to their LBA then they're not being unreasonable. It's been 7 days since you replied.

They gave you 14 days to respond to their LBA which was reasonable.

I'm only being devil's advocate because you've no idea what's gong on behind the scenes. Perhaps they've had second thoughts.

Did their LBA say they would issue legal proceedings without further notice if you didn't pay the £500?

Did your response say that you would not only defend the proceedings but issue a counterclaim in excess of the amount they intend to claim?

You've reached a High Noon moment where psychology kicks in because neither of you know for certain what the other's next move will be.

Di

[PlanB]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

Paid cash and yes it was part of the whole installation. (over £100)

I only asked about how you paid because if you had paid (even part of it of at least £100) by credit card then you could evoke section 75 CCA which makes the credit provider (your credit card company) jointly liable for any breaches by the supplier so they would have to take up the battle for you.

Why did you pay cash? Did they give you a discount for cash or were they avoiding tax/VAT?

When negotiating it helps to have the moral high-ground (something to maybe hold against them ).

Di

[marypoppins]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

Did you have chance to read the attachment on my email Di?


I understand what you’re saying about the amount I’m hanging on to, it’s not going to cost anywhere near £500 unless (god forbid) they damage my quartz worktop! The sink will have to be smashed out because of the poor way it’s been installed. As Pixie mention in their post, maybe withhold more than £100 just in case it ends up costing more?


The manufacturers would normally have come out to inspect the installation but as it was close to Xmas, they kindly replaced it so if they came out now (I have asked) but the supplier did advise that if they did and the fitting was found to be wrong, I would have the added cost (£200+) of the replacement one they’d delivered foc.


Morally, if I’ve had it under false pretences, then the replacement should be paid for……


When I said cash, I didn’t mean in pound notes, it was all paid by bank transfer, sorry for the confusion. No credit cards anymore!


Yes the LBA said they will issue without further reference to me and no, I didn’t give them a date to respond by. I’m stupid enough to still be giving them the benefit of the doubt and play ball! No I didn’t tell them I would issue a counterclaim. Hindsight is wonderful thing…………maybe I should do now as I’ve since had three people look and all considered it was a bad installation and only one will actually do the job!

I'm having problems with AAD today or it's my laptop, I start a long post and find out I've been logged out so i've had to do this in a word doc and copy it over.

- - Updated - - -

I'm not sure where I got the court fees from so thanks for correcting me

[Deepie]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

I paid the balance less £500 in October because there were some things that still needed sorting.

what were the things that still needed sorting ? £500 seems a lot to me !!!!!

[Pixie]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

Yes the LBA said they will issue without further reference to me and no, I didn’t give them a date to respond by. I’m stupid enough to still be giving them the benefit of the doubt and play ball! No I didn’t tell them I would issue a counterclaim. Hindsight is wonderful thing…………maybe I should do now as I’ve since had three people look and all considered it was a bad installation and only one will actually do the job!

That's a bit of a pain that they've said they'll issue proceedings without further notice. You see quite a lot on programmes like 'Can't Pay We'll Take It Away' where there has been a dispute over goods/services though presumably they've also ignored any further action before it got to the high court. Perhaps write to them again saying that you're diasppointed that you haven't yet had a reply, offer to pay them say £250 dependent on the final cost of rectifying their mistake. Give them 14 days from the date of your letter to reply and say that, should you receive a claim then you will issue a counter claim as stated by PlanB above.

I'm having problems with AAD today or it's my laptop, I start a long post and find out I've been logged out so i've had to do this in a word doc and copy it over.

Do you tick the 'remember me' box?

[marypoppins]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

what were the things that still needed sorting ? £500 seems a lot to me !!!!!

There was a list of about a dozen things that needed to be rectified Deepie, doors fitted that were damaged and had to be replaced the cooker had to be re-fitted because they hadn’t left enough room for the hob to sit above it. The extractor shattered within hours of it being fitted (I don’t think it was down the the fitting) but it hadn’t been put at the right height which caused further problems when another fitter tried to fit the replacement. Doors that weren’t aligned properly and of course this all took time to get sorted because the fitters had moved on to other jobs.

£500 was just the figure I decided, perhaps it was a little excessive but I think it was purely down to my frustration at the time, bearing in mind that they started early July, I paid the balance (less £500) at the end of October but it wasn’t until about a week later that the director came out to see what needed doing and spent about an hour putting the last few things right.

[marypoppins]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

That's a bit of a pain that they've said they'll issue proceedings without further notice. You see quite a lot on programmes like 'Can't Pay We'll Take It Away' where there has been a dispute over goods/services though presumably they've also ignored any further action before it got to the high court. Perhaps write to them again saying that you're diasppointed that you haven't yet had a reply, offer to pay them say £250 dependent on the final cost of rectifying their mistake. Give them 14 days from the date of your letter to reply and say that, should you receive a claim then you will issue a counter claim as stated by PlanB above.



Do you tick the 'remember me' box?

Yes I agree Pixie, I’ll draft something tomorrow which I can print when I’m back at work on Tuesday which is the 14^th day, I’ll email a copy to them and post it recorded delivery. I’m just undecided whether to tell them that my photo’s clearly show that there wasn’t an allowance made for the worktop as per the manufacturers guidelines.

Box now ticked thank you!

[nanna58]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

Think i would may keep that up your sleeve ? Difficult.x

[Pixie]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

Think i would may keep that up your sleeve ? Difficult.x

I agree nanna.

It sounds like they made a right c*ck up of the job Mary. I'm not surprised you were frustrated!

[PlanB]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

Did you have chance to read the attachment on my email Di?

The manufacturers would normally have come out to inspect the installation but as it was close to Xmas, they kindly replaced it so if they came out now (I have asked) but the supplier did advise that if they did and the fitting was found to be wrong, I would have the added cost (£200+) of the replacement one they’d delivered foc.

. . . I didn’t give them a date to respond by. I’m stupid enough to still be giving them the benefit of the doubt and play ball! No I didn’t tell them I would issue a counterclaim. Hindsight is wonderful thing…………maybe I should do now as I’ve since had three people look and all considered it was a bad installation and only one will actually do the job!

I did read your letter but thought it best to react without referring to it on the forum in order to keep the conversation going

You've sent them a very reasonable letter detailing the history including everything else that went on/wrong which may now be sorted, but it puts your current issue into perspective i.e.lots of errors along the way. There seems to have been a change of fitters during the process too.

So far they've not responded so I see no reason why you shouldn't send them a follow-up letter only this one could be a bit more 'legal'.

Consumers are protected by the Consumers Rights Act 2015. Services must be carried out with "reasonable skill and care". You've told them what's wrong (sink fitted incorrectly resulting in damage to it) so now tell them what they need to do to put it right and how much it will cost you to put it right if they don't. Give them a deadline for fixing the problem.

You need to send them evidence of the potential cost (to you) including at least two written quotes for labour and a quote for replacing the damage sink. So far it looks like £100 for labour and £200 for a new sink. If that's the maximum it will cost you, deduct that from the £500 you admit is due and send them the balance if you feel morally obliged and if you think it may prevent legal proceedings for the full £500 (where your Defence would be to lower the claim/offset by £300 but you could still risk a CCJ for £200). If they see actual evidence of the potential cost to you they're more likely to play ball. Withholding an arbitrary £500 may only continue to wind them up.

In effect you'd be sending them a LBA of your own and there's a template on the CAB website which may help you. Make sure you include a bit of statutory stuff so quote the Consumer Rights Act. That should help them to focus when they realise that you could report them to Trading Standards who would step in.

I see no reason not to include the photos you've got. Maybe it's better to send them now (so they can see the nature of your dispute in black and white) in preference to showing them to a DJ.

The aim is to get the job fixed and to avoid court proceedings against you.

CAB Template Letters here > https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...-quality-work/

CAB explanation of the Consumer Rights Act here > https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ab...ghts-act-2015/

Di

[marypoppins]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

Thank you Di, I've done an appropriate letter and will post to them tomorrow when I've got access to my printer at work.

I've emailed it too and sent the photographs.

The links were very helpful.

[marypoppins]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

When I got home from work yesterday, there was familiar looking C5 brown envelope on the table!

Turned out to be my annual tax summary.

[cymruambyth]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

[marypoppins]

Re: Kitchen sink problem

They have finally responded, apologising and blaming pressure of work for the delay!

They still maintain they're not at fault and that the damage occurred 'many months' after their installation of the kitchen. The top was fitted on 21st July so the sink would probably have become operational by the end of July (approx) the damage became visible in November.

They state that the fitting of the sink has not and could not cause a hairline crack in a ceramic sink that I sourced myself. They agree that IF there was an insufficient gap between the sink and worktop, it could cause damage BUT the fitters of the worktop should have called them and would not have proceeded to fit the top, if there wasn't a sufficient gap.

Just to clarify, the kitchen company installed the sink, the worktops were fitted by another company and they would have sealed the sink to the top, which they (the kitchen company) confirmed is normal practice with any granite company.

The granite company did come out at my request because I was concerned that the top would have to be removed to replace the sink. They didn't think it would be necessary but advised me that a carpenter would have to do the job.

I will approach the granite company but I can probably guess what their reply will be, they weren't employed to fit the sink however, it is a service they offer and I would have thought that they would have lots of experience in the fitting of an undermount sink.

Is it debatable who should take responsibility?

They've given me until 27th Feb to pay the full balance and will issue proceedings, should it (or any part of it) not be paid by then.