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  • #16
    1. (1)

      applies to a firm with respect to consumer credit lending and a firm with respect to consumer hiring;
    2. (2)

      does not apply to the obligation in or under section 78(4), (4A) or (5) of the CCA on a lender to give regular statements where running-account credit is provided under a regulated credit agreement.
    1. (4)

      In accordance with the sections referred to in (1) the firm must 'give' a copy of the executed agreement and any other document referred to in it and the required statement. In the FCA's view, sending a copy of them by ordinary second class post will suffice. Guidance on what constitutes a copy is given below and found in the case of Carey v HSBC Bank plc [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB).
    1. (1)

      Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.
    2. (2)

      In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.
    3. (3)

      In particular, a firm should not in such cases either threaten court action or other enforcement of the debt or imply that the debt is enforceable when it is not.
    4. (4)

      The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.
    5. (5)

      In the judgment of McGuffick -v- The Royal Bank of Scotland plc [2009] EWHC 2386 (Comm) Flaux J held in a case under section 77 of the CCA that passing details of a debt to a credit reference agency and related activities do not constitute enforcement under the CCA. He also held that steps taken with a view to enforcement, including demanding payment from a claimant, issuing a default notice, threatening legal action and the actual bringing of proceedings, are not themselves 'enforcement' under the CCA. On the other hand he confirmed that the actions listed under sections 76(1) and 87(1) of the CCA did amount to enforcement notwithstanding that some of the actions 'less obviously' amounted to enforcement. These actions are demanding earlier payment, recovering possession of goods or land, treating any right conferred on the debtor by the agreement as terminated, restricted or deferred, enforcing any security and terminating the agreement.
    6. (6)

      While Flaux J agreed with the decision of HHJ Simon Brown QC (sitting as a Deputy High Court Judge) in Tesco Personal Finance v Rankine [2009] C.C.L.R. 3 that commencing proceedings was not enforcement, but a step taken with a view to enforcement, both he and HHJ Simon Brown appear to have been drawing a distinction between commencing proceedings and entering judgment in those proceedings.
    7. (7)

      This guidance deals only with the question of whether an agreement is unenforceable in relation to sections 77, 78 and 79 of the CCA. A lender's rights to enforce an agreement may be restricted for a variety of reasons, by the Act, by or under the CCA and by virtue of the general law.
    8. (8)

      However, where a firm is aware that an agreement is unenforceable because of non-compliance with an information request under section 77, 78 or 79 of the CCA, a firm should make it clear when communicating to a customer about a debt that the debt is in fact unenforceable. Failure to do so, in that case, would in the FCA's view unfairly mislead the customer by omission. Any communication that implies expressly or otherwise that a debt is enforceable when it is known that it is not, would be misleading. One way to avoid this would be for the firm to explain to the customer the full meaning of 'unenforceable'.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Roger View Post
      1. (1)

        applies to a firm with respect to consumer credit lending and a firm with respect to consumer hiring;
      2. (2)

        does not apply to the obligation in or under section 78(4), (4A) or (5) of the CCA on a lender to give regular statements where running-account credit is provided under a regulated credit agreement.
      1. (4)

        In accordance with the sections referred to in (1) the firm must 'give' a copy of the executed agreement and any other document referred to in it and the required statement. In the FCA's view, sending a copy of them by ordinary second class post will suffice. Guidance on what constitutes a copy is given below and found in the case of Carey v HSBC Bank plc [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB).
      1. (1)

        Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.
      2. (2)

        In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.
      3. (3)

        In particular, a firm should not in such cases either threaten court action or other enforcement of the debt or imply that the debt is enforceable when it is not.
      4. (4)

        The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.
      5. (5)

        In the judgment of McGuffick -v- The Royal Bank of Scotland plc [2009] EWHC 2386 (Comm) Flaux J held in a case under section 77 of the CCA that passing details of a debt to a credit reference agency and related activities do not constitute enforcement under the CCA. He also held that steps taken with a view to enforcement, including demanding payment from a claimant, issuing a default notice, threatening legal action and the actual bringing of proceedings, are not themselves 'enforcement' under the CCA. On the other hand he confirmed that the actions listed under sections 76(1) and 87(1) of the CCA did amount to enforcement notwithstanding that some of the actions 'less obviously' amounted to enforcement. These actions are demanding earlier payment, recovering possession of goods or land, treating any right conferred on the debtor by the agreement as terminated, restricted or deferred, enforcing any security and terminating the agreement.
      6. (6)

        While Flaux J agreed with the decision of HHJ Simon Brown QC (sitting as a Deputy High Court Judge) in Tesco Personal Finance v Rankine [2009] C.C.L.R. 3 that commencing proceedings was not enforcement, but a step taken with a view to enforcement, both he and HHJ Simon Brown appear to have been drawing a distinction between commencing proceedings and entering judgment in those proceedings.
      7. (7)

        This guidance deals only with the question of whether an agreement is unenforceable in relation to sections 77, 78 and 79 of the CCA. A lender's rights to enforce an agreement may be restricted for a variety of reasons, by the Act, by or under the CCA and by virtue of the general law.
      8. (8)

        However, where a firm is aware that an agreement is unenforceable because of non-compliance with an information request under section 77, 78 or 79 of the CCA, a firm should make it clear when communicating to a customer about a debt that the debt is in fact unenforceable. Failure to do so, in that case, would in the FCA's view unfairly mislead the customer by omission. Any communication that implies expressly or otherwise that a debt is enforceable when it is known that it is not, would be misleading. One way to avoid this would be for the firm to explain to the customer the full meaning of 'unenforceable'.
      I assume you are agreeing with me about the cca request but could you give some context to the above. At the moment it could have come from anywhere. But we know a judge has the final say .
      Last edited by Gilly71; 19 July 2024, 20:04.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Gilly71 View Post

        I assume you are agreeing with me about the cca request but could you give some context to the above. At the moment it could have come from anywhere. But we know a judge has the final say .
        1. (7)

          This guidance deals only with the question of whether an agreement is unenforceable in relation to sections 77, 78 and 79 of the CCA. A lender's rights to enforce an agreement may be restricted for a variety of reasons, by the Act, by or under the CCA and by virtue of the general law.
        THIS GUIDANCE DEALS ONLY WITH THE QUESTION OF WHETHER AN AGREEMENT IS UE IN RELATION TO S.77/78/79.

        A LENDER'S RIGHTS TO ENFORCE AN AGREEMENT MAY BE RESTRICTED FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.
        1/ BY THE ACT
        2/ BY OR UNDER THE CCA
        3/ BY VIRTUE OF THE GENERAL LAW

        Which is why the AAD Diary approach is so good!
        Because it provides a framework to consider a variety of reasons!

        A Judge has the finally say?
        1. (1)

          Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.
        Last edited by Roger; 19 July 2024, 23:49.

        Comment


        • #19
          Interesting but where does this come from? I am assuming the FCA but let’s not be precious and hold that information to ourselves.

          It is also interesting that both Dottir and you are saying Gerry Jemitus is wrong when he says some creditors argue they do not have to provide a cca request.

          I am aware of the FCA is this where your source came from https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/13.pdf

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Gilly71 View Post
            Interesting but where does this come from? I am assuming the FCA but let’s not be precious and hold that information to ourselves.

            It is also interesting that both Dottir and you are saying Gerry Jemitus is wrong when he says some creditors argue they do not have to provide a cca request.

            I am aware of the FCA is this where your source came from https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/13.pdf
            Well back to sniffing again are we?
            As you know its about the total picture not tittle tattle and cherry picking that path is Fatal!!
            This is Davidbrownm05

            I suggest you use your own Diary and Blog

            The AAD Diary please before speculative sniffing around the edges!

            I suggest that you take up your queries with Gerry Jemitus
            The first consulation is free
            Last edited by Roger; 20 July 2024, 08:43.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Roger View Post

              Well back to sniffing again are we?
              As you know its about the total picture not tittle tattle and cherry picking that path is Fatal!!
              This is Davidbrownm05

              I suggest you use your own Diary and Blog

              The AAD Diary please before speculative sniffing around the edges!

              I suggest that you take up your queries with Gerry Jemitus
              The first consulation is free
              You seem to be incapable of answering a question.

              Isn’t it ironic how you spend half your time promoting solicitors and then posting things that disagree with them but accuse me of cherry picking .

              You are simply making yourself look foolish and you don’t need my help for that.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Gilly71 View Post

                You seem to be incapable of answering a question.

                Isn’t it ironic how you spend half your time promoting solicitors and then posting things that disagree with them but accuse me of cherry picking .

                You are simply making yourself look foolish and you don’t need my help for that.
                No Gilly71 or is it Gillybobs perhaps Gilly Whatever you and indeed others Avatars are.

                NO TWO DEBT CASES ARE THE SAME
                If you require particular advice from a lawyer you will have to provide the FULL picture.
                You know this and yet persist in cherry picking point scoring without the whole picture which is a FATAL mistake!


                Ulaha iyo dhagxaanta ayaa laga yaabaa inay lafahayga jebiyaan laakiin magacyadu waligood ima yeeli doonaan

                This is not you Blog is it Davidbrownm05 or whatever their latest Avatar is

                My best advice for you is as follows

                It helps you and AAD if you can set up your Diary and Debts in the AAD format!

                Please set out your Diary in the following format
                This will enable AAD members to advise or otherwise

                Type of account -
                Date commenced -
                Approx balance -
                Date last paid -
                Are you on arrangement or not paying -
                Account owner


                Comment


                • #23
                  How old are you? Maybe 6? What will you do when the school holidays start?

                  Asked and answered, I have spoken to a proper lawyer not a ‘litigation executive’ who is responsible for IT.

                  You seem to just post excerpts from other people’s work. That is plagiarism aka cheating or showing yourself up.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    After doing some research on reconstituted notices such as Default Notices and indeed S77-79 requests. There seems to be a common theme or at least a common name.

                    Comment

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